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  • Apollo wrote: View Post
    His contract is actually a good when you compare his production to those making around what he makes. The contract isn't the problem and it won't stop him from being moved should that be decided the best thing to do.
    I think a player getting that kind of scratch had better be adding 10-15 wins to his team's totals at the end of a season,a nd there's no precedent for that in Bargnani's past.

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    • Brandon wrote: View Post
      I think a player getting that kind of scratch had better be adding 10-15 wins to his team's totals at the end of a season,a nd there's no precedent for that in Bargnani's past.
      People don't get contracts based on what they've done, they get contracts based on what managers think they can do in the future. That's why you see young unproven guys get big contracts while 30 somethings at the end of their careers are signing for the vet minimum.

      Also, where are you getting these 10-15 wins from? How does one proven that a player added ten wins to his club?

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      • Apollo wrote: View Post
        People don't get contracts based on what they've done, they get contracts based on what managers think they can do in the future. That's why you see young unproven guys get big contracts while 30 somethings at the end of their careers are signing for the vet minimum.

        Also, where are you getting these 10-15 wins from? How does one proven that a player added ten wins to his club?
        I think all-stars add that much to their teams. There's a point of diminishing returns though, because wins get lot more difficult after a team gets to about 55 or so. We can see what happened when Lebron James changed teams. He's universally considered to be the most productive player in the league, and without him Cleveland dropped to 40 fewer wins. Miami added 20, although past 55 wins it became more difficult. In other words, Miami already had an MVP-type the previous season, so Lebron didn't add 40 regular season wins to that team because they weren't that bad to begin with.

        I'm deliberately mentioning those HOF-type players because they're the only ones I'd give a big contract to. I think Jordan was right this summer when he said that the middling players are getting too much money. The Raps gave Bargnani and Calderon big contracts and Amir Johnson and Linas Kleiza fairly big ones, and what have they got for it? The team sucks. Their suckage wouldn't be very much worse without those guys.

        I've read your arguments about building a team, and how you think these guys are necessary and whatnot. But I think you build a team with stars first. Stars, and lots of them. Then, after that's done, you can go out and get middling players to round things out. Over and over we've seen that having too many big contracts on the books hurts a team's ability to bring in stars. Look at Miami and the Clippers, for example. I don't care if you draft them or sign them or trade for them, but this is a star's league exclusively. If you don't have a few of the top 30 players on your team you aren't in the conversation.

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        • Brandon wrote: View Post
          I've read your arguments about building a team, and how you think these guys are necessary and whatnot. But I think you build a team with stars first. Stars, and lots of them. Then, after that's done, you can go out and get middling players to round things out. Over and over we've seen that having too many big contracts on the books hurts a team's ability to bring in stars. Look at Miami and the Clippers, for example. I don't care if you draft them or sign them or trade for them, but this is a star's league exclusively. If you don't have a few of the top 30 players on your team you aren't in the conversation.
          You make it sound as if you can add a star player to your team, simply by snapping your fingers. No, you go further to make it sound like you can add multiple stars that easily. Unless you're Miami, Boston or New York, you really just have two options.

          One: You get lucky and land a star or two in the Draft. The Thunder are a good example of this working out well. They sucked, they picked the right guys and now they're a legitimate force.

          Two: You put together solid pieces, draft one legitimate talent, and the winning draws in the stars. Chicago did a nice job in accumulating good pieces that really accent D. Rose. With the winning, every time a notable free agent is looking, Chicago comes up in the conversation.

          New Jersey snapped their fingers and gave up everything for their star.. But without the solid pieces around him it's just wasted. Other stars aren't exactly clamoring to go lose with him in Brooklyn. Or maybe next year I'll eat my words.. The Raps are doing all they can do. Getting some good complimentary pieces, sucking enough to strike gold in the draft, and leaving cap space to accommodate a star when the stars align and the winning happens. Next years draft will be the deciding point just how bright the near future is for these Raptors.

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          • Brandon, $10M/yr is nothing close to max money. Franchise players get the max money deals. Jordan was making $30M/yr in '98. Shaq was making it right into his Miami days. If you want to talk bad deal let's talk Lewis and Arenas clearing well over $20M/yr. Go look up guys making in around $10M/yr and I guarantee you that Andrea is as impactful right now as most of them.

            Calderon was given fair market value. He was playing outstanding basketball when he was up for a contract and the Raptors had two choices, keep T.J., who was no longer getting along with Bosh, or keep Calderon and give him what he was worth at the time. They went with the guy who was saying all right things, getting along with everybody and staying healthy. If it wasn't Toronto somebody else would have given him that money the way he was playing. Amir's contract is not bad. Colangelo gave him a deal he felt Amir was worth and it's worked out really well. It looked risky when it was signed but I really don't know how you can sit there and criticize it now. For the play Amir gives them it's a high value contract and not to mention he could easily be moved tomorrow if they decided it was best for the team. Kleiza was a bad deal but it was also a relatively small deal as well which could easily be amnestied if need be. I think you need to turn down your hindsight goggles here a bit because it's clouding the discussion.

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            • The comments that went off track on to Amir have been moved here:


              http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/sh...s-Amir-Johnson

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              • DeMar speaking highly on Bargnani

                “It starts with Dre’ (Andrea Bargnani) and myself,” DeRozan tells HOOPSWORLD. “We try and take that challenge and have everyone else feed off of our energy. It’s a role that both of us are going to have to take on and it should be fun.”

                Of course, part of the reason DeRozan’s scoring is down is that Bargnani is scoring at a career-best clip of 22.3 points per game. DeRozan sees a difference in his front court mate, who has been asked to step his game up considerably under Coach Casey.

                “Oh yeah, definitely. Whether it’s rebounding or just impacting the ball on the defensive end, he’s definitely big for us. I don’t think people get a chance to see it but he’s definitely been putting in hard work and he’s shown people that he can play on the defensive end.”

                Source: HoopsWorld.com


                Normally you'd say, "Yeah, well he is his teammate, of course he is going to speak highly of him."

                However, last year numerous people called out Bargnani in the exit-interviews exit (i.e. reporters waiting) so I don't think he'd say it if he didn't mean it.

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                • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Source: HoopsWorld.com


                  Normally you'd say, "Yeah, well he is his teammate, of course he is going to speak highly of him."

                  However, last year numerous people called out Bargnani in the exit-interviews exit (i.e. reporters waiting) so I don't think he'd say it if he didn't mean it.
                  And he calls him Dre now....how sweet.

                  Yeah, including him. Well, he didnt say it directly(and nobody really would in that situation anyways) but i remember him saying that they badly need a center who can dominate the paint, protect the rim, provide help defense and rebound. Well, Bargnani was pretty much the one playing that spot the whole year, so i dont know, maybe Demar was talking about, um, hhhmmm, Dorsey?? hahaha.

                  I think "Dre" should come out and say, well, we'd be in a better spot right now if i didnt have to do all the scoring, we dont seem to get any production from our SG, whoever is playing that spot....and then next year "Dre" will call Demar "Roz" or maybe "De-De" (pronounced as Dey-Dey).

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                  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Source: HoopsWorld.com


                    Normally you'd say, "Yeah, well he is his teammate, of course he is going to speak highly of him."

                    However, last year numerous people called out Bargnani in the exit-interviews exit (i.e. reporters waiting) so I don't think he'd say it if he didn't mean it.
                    Yeah, I'm with you. Bargnani deserves high praise so far this season for what he's done. It's nice that we keep hearing from everyone in the know that Andrea is busting his ass in practice.

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                    • ya we need Bargs to say that lol.

                      Year end press conference:

                      Bargnani: " um well i think we need more scoring from the SG position, i'm not going to say names but it starts with a D"

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                      • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                        ya we need Bargs to say that lol.

                        Year end press conference:

                        Bargnani: " um well i think we need more scoring from the SG position, i'm not going to say names but it starts with a D"
                        hahaha maybe Dwayne? hahaha

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                        • yertu damkule wrote: View Post
                          hmm...i always thought it was 'grainwise.'
                          oh... really? well if that's true than disregard everything I was saying. This needs to be clarified!
                          If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                          Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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                          • Apollo wrote: View Post
                            Jerome Williams is not dumb. I just want to have that on the record before I have to testify to Congress.
                            ya, you lost me. I think I know what your talking about,but, before I go any further just clarify it for me.
                            If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                            Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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                            • He would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those darn his and their "dumb dog". The Raptors have only one dog: The Junkyard Dog.

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                              • Has anyone heard when he's expected back?

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