How Would This Raptors Five Match Up vs The Thunder Starters?

[bearvon]

Listen guys...

RIGHT NOW! Alex English (or whoever...don't care) is teaching Amir how to shoot. Right now guys, I'm not kidding.

So obviously he is better than Jeff Green.

I don't care if Green is the 2nd or 3rd banana on a top team in the western conference.

Blatantly obvious things that you can see with your own eyes don't hold a candle to advanced stats.

Don't believe the "lsm" guys.

[jjiio]

PF - Johnson vs J. Green - Two young athletic guys who can run the court and defend. Green relies a lot on the three point shot for his offense. Johnson relies more on the pick and roll and post up game for his offense - Slight edge to the Johnson because he is a lot more efficient on offense

This is just ridiculous. Green is scoring 15 points per game. How in the world can you give the edge to Johnson? Because he has proved... what? That he can foul? That he has no offensive game? Basically, he can't guard anybody consistently because of his fouls and his offense is based on putbacks, fastbreak dunks.

If you don't even know the correct rotation of the thunder why do you compare those teams? Love your team, but please, stay realistic.

[Buddahfan]

Last time I checked, you actually have to be ON the court in order for "on court effectiveness" to be... well, effective. With that said, Minutes----------8,166--------3,291 and PF per 36 minutes---2.7---------6.5 jump out immediately..

Let's also not forget that Amir racked up all those wonderful stats and personal fouls on bench players. Whereas Green got his playing legit starters. Apples and oranges.

Not according to 82games.com

Check their on court vs off court numbers

The Raptors were +7.1 points per 100 possessions when he was on the court compared to when he was not.

Raptors opponents shot 48.0% when he was on the court and 53.1% when he was not or 5.1% worse when he was on the court


http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR9.HTM

Now lets look at Green

The Thunder were 9.3 points worse per 100 possessions when he was on the court than when he wasn't


Thunder opponents shot substantially better when Green was on the court, 49.6% when he was on the court and only 44.1% when he was not.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09OKC12.HTM

When Johnson started last season he averaged 33 mpg and a + 8.4 per game, which actually works out to be a little better than his +7.1 for the entire season when he mostly came off of the bench


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba

Can Johnson maintain those kind of numbers starting for an entire season. I doubt it. However, there is no reason to suggest that if he can play 30 mpg that he will not be a lot more effective starter than Green.

Besides, what good is to be on the court for 37 mpg if the team is worse when you are on the court then when you are off of it?

Green's view by most hoops fans is the result of all the hype that ESPN gave him starting when he was Georgetown and his Olympic BS.

[black angus]

While I can't stand Bargnani, to think that Cole Aldrich as a rookie will be better than Bargnani is completely moronic.

Completely moronic? Aldrich is already a better shot blocker and rebounder and probably was 4 years ago when Bargnani was a rookie and Aldrich was a senior... in high school.

[JoePanini]

Completely moronic? Aldrich is already a better shot blocker and rebounder and probably was 4 years ago when Bargnani was a rookie and Aldrich was a senior... in high school.

The fact that Aldrich is a better rebounder doesn't make him a better player. Bargnani can spread the floor, can Aldrich? Bargnani will get double-teamed during a game, will Aldrich? Bargnani can shoot from the three and is a great elbow scorer, can Aldrich? And Bargnani is a pretty good shot-blocker (1.4 a game last year).

[Raptor Cowboy]

Firstly, my point is that there is a reason Johnson has only averaged, what, 16 minutes a game?

Can Johnson maintain those kind of numbers starting for an entire season. I doubt it. However, there is no reason to suggest that if he can play 30 mpg that he will not be a lot more effective starter than Green.

Of course there is a reason to suggest he's not going to be more effective than Green. First, he's playing scrubs. Especially at just 16 minutes a game off the bench. Green is playing 37 minutes in the west, and at least last year, the west was PACKED with elite power forwards.

To even think that you could compare Green's 37 minutes versus say a Pau Gasol or an Amare with Amir Johnson's 16 minutes versus Tyler Hansbourgh or Marresse Speights is absolutely insane.

If Green got to play just 16 minutes versus scrub bench players, he'd rack up massive stats and a killer PER too.

Can we please remember that stats are not accumulated in a vacuum and that it actually matters against whom those stats were achieved?

[Blasterfi9]

While I can't stand Bargnani, to think that Cole Aldrich as a rookie will be better than Bargnani is completely moronic.

Completely agree there -_-

[Buddahfan]

Firstly, my point is that there is a reason Johnson has only averaged, what, 16 minutes a game?



Of course there is a reason to suggest he's not going to be more effective than Green. First, he's playing scrubs. Especially at just 16 minutes a game off the bench. Green is playing 37 minutes in the west, and at least last year, the west was PACKED with elite power forwards.

To even think that you could compare Green's 37 minutes versus say a Pau Gasol or an Amare with Amir Johnson's 16 minutes versus Tyler Hansbourgh or Marresse Speights is absolutely insane.

If Green got to play just 16 minutes versus scrub bench players, he'd rack up massive stats and a killer PER too.

Can we please remember that stats are not accumulated in a vacuum and that it actually matters against whom those stats were achieved?

1. There have been well over one thousand and maybe even two thousand or more players in the history of the NBA who played between 1,300 and 1,600 minutes in a NBA season like Johnson did last season (He played 1,450)

Here is where Johnson's numbers from last season rank him compared to these thousands in NBA history who played between 1,300 and 1,600 minutes in one season in the season(s) in which they played between 1,300 and 1,600 minutes.

1. WS/48----------93
2. Offensive WS----36
3. PER -----------153
4. Off Rating--------3 That is the third best all time out of thousands
5. TS%-------------5
6. eFG%------------4
7. Off Reb%--------64
8. Tot Reb%-------124

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...psl_finder.cgi

2. Saying that Johnson accumulated all or even most of his minutes vs bench scrub players is just wrong You might want to go back and watch the Raptors games from last season or re-watch their games assuming that you watched them to begin with.

Most of the season he was on the court with either Bosh or Bargnani. Does that mean that Bosh and Bargnani had inflated numbers because approximately nine mpg or 25% of their floor time each they played against scrubs? Get real


You are over reaching big time and you dropped your food all over the floor

[Introcollapse]

Raptors fans, PLEASE stop over-valuing your players.

I would never give Amir Johnson an edge over Jeff Green. Jeff Green is a proven starter. He's great defensively, reads the floor well, and is willing to accept a secondary role. He's a jack of all trades: three point shot, athletic, rebounding, assists, steals, blocks, post-moves. Amir is hustle, athleticism and rebounding. He hasn't proven that he can play more than 20 minutes a game without fouling out. He's one dimensional.

Krstic is better than Ed Davis. Krstic has a very solid mid-range J, and a toughness to him that I have yet to see from Ed Davis. Comparing a proven veteran to a rookie is just silly.

Julian Wright is all potential. He can still be nearly anything with the right work ethic. He's still raw athleticism. Think DeRozan '09.

The DeRozan to Harden match-up is the only one I can somewhat agree with. However, it's mainly because DeRozan will likely play twice the minutes Harden does and be the second (or third) option on offense. With that said, don't forget that Sefalosha starts. Thabo is a VERY good defender and little more than that. Could easily shut down DeRozan.

Ibaka reminds me of Amir Johnson minus the foul trouble.

Cole Aldrich may have earned a starting position at center by the time this game comes along. If so, Bargnani will have a small edge.

All of this aside, the fact that Westbrook (better than any player on our roster) and Durant (better than any player on 80% of the league's roster) exist is reason enough to believe that we stand no chance. The Thunder are absolutely terrific defensively, and have such great chemistry on both sides of the court that I can't even see this game being close.

And please stop worrying about trading for a young point guard. Accept that we're stuck with Jose, and that Jack is decent enough until DeRozan and Davis come into their own. Notice how I didn't include Weems or Johnson.

[Introcollapse]

Here is where Johnson's numbers from last season rank him compared to these thousands in NBA history who played between 1,300 and 1,600 minutes in one season in the season(s) in which they played between 1,300 and 1,600 minutes.

1. WS/48----------93
2. Offensive WS----36
3. PER -----------153
4. Off Rating--------3 That is the third best all time out of thousands
5. TS%-------------5
6. eFG%------------4
7. Off Reb%--------64
8. Tot Reb%-------124

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...psl_finder.cgi

Okay, so let's see if these "great" stats translate when his minutes double. They won't. Not nearly to that amount, especially without the crutch of playing with Bosh. Green is proven, Johnson has yet to prove he can stay on the floor long enough to even average 30 minutes a game.

When you're able to play your absolute hardest (easy with Amir's work ethic and effort) for 15 minutes without worrying about losing all of your energy for the game or fouling out, those stats aren't hard to put up.

[JoePanini]

Ibaka is seriously underrated. If you consider him the same as AJ minus foul trouble you are crazy. He was clearly OKC starter at the 5 spot. Can play great at both ends. Blocks shots for fun, dunks over people for fun, takes screens for fun, pretty much he does everything you want a center to do, he is like Howard, but obviously not as good.

[Introcollapse]

Ibaka is seriously underrated. If you consider him the same as AJ minus foul trouble you are crazy. He was clearly OKC starter at the 5 spot. Can play great at both ends. Blocks shots for fun, dunks over people for fun, takes screens for fun, pretty much he does everything you want a center to do, he is like Howard, but obviously not as good.

Both have a knack for weak side blocks. Both have a knack for going over and through defenders. Both have a knack for flying across the floor to grab a loose ball. Both have 0 post skill or any skill outside of anything that doesn't include their athleticism. Amir has an inconsistent mid-range j, and Ibaka doesn't. They're the same darn player.

Comparing him to Howard at all is hilarious. The Thunder are one of the 4 teams whose every game I watch. The others are the Raptors (obviously), the Lakers, and Milwaukee.

I could be wrong, but I doubt you watched more than 5 Thunder games (excluding the playoffs). Howard? REALLY? He's half the mass, half the rebounder, and 3 inches shorter. Not to mention half the athleticism and maybe a fourth of his offensive arsenal.

[JoePanini]

Both have a knack for weak side blocks. Both have a knack for going over and through defenders. Both have a knack for flying across the floor to grab a loose ball. Both have 0 post skill or any skill outside of anything that doesn't include their athleticism. Amir has an inconsistent mid-range j, and Ibaka doesn't. They're the same darn player.

Comparing him to Howard at all is hilarious. The Thunder are one of the 4 teams whose every game I watch. The others are the Raptors (obviously), the Lakers, and Milwaukee.

I could be wrong, but I doubt you watched more than 5 Thunder games (excluding the playoffs). Howard? REALLY? He's half the mass, half the rebounder, and 3 inches shorter. Not to mention half the athleticism and maybe a fourth of his offensive arsenal.

I've been watching OKC play since the moved. I've been a Seattle fan most of my life, best friend was from there. And yes, Ray Allen is my favorite player, still is. And I think Ibaka has great potential, ALOT more than AJ. He can rebound just as well as AJ, and you saying he can't rebound is just ridiculous. I said he is comparable to Howard as in he can block, rebound, post and has sick leaping abilities. Which are all things Howard does.