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  • A Non SuperStar Team

    Much has been said about the fact that the Raptors don't have a Franchise player with Bosh's departure. Most of this talk insist in the negative impact that this could have in the team. But lately there's been evidence that this could be possitive in some point.

    We all know that the NBA is a Superstar league, where player are bigger than systems and coaches, even though I hate that it's that way, it's true a it's the biggest difference between the NBA and International basketball.

    However i think there's a tendency recently for teams without superstars to have some positive impact. Of course, this evidence in my memory, has two succesful examples. One is almost ten years ago and can be seen as a preview of a new era. This case is the Orlando Magic that was a basket ago to being a playoff team when everyone expected to be the worst team in the NBA. That year, Darrel Armstrong was the best player and Doc Rivers the coach. Another well know player on that team were, Bo Outlaw, Ron Mercer and Mike Miller. Rivers was the Coach of the Year in that season.

    The other case was the Milwaukee Bucks of last year, with Redd injured for most of the season and with the late adittion of Salmons. Bogut was their best player. He's and extraordiary and complete player, but he's not consider a Superstar by the NBA Market, where David Lee is an All Star in a awful team that play no defense. Jennings was consider lately as a Franchise, but he was a rookie and has good and bad moments. But with players like Ilyasova, Salmons, Ridnour, Bogut, Delfino, Mbah Moute and Charlie Bell and coached by in my opinon one of the best coaches in the NBA - Skyles- they finished 5th in the East, above Wade's Heat and Rose's Bulls, and they were a big obstacule to the Hawks in the playoffs (finished 4-3).

    This year, judging by the preseason, the Raptors are not the horrible team the specialist predicted, Kleiza, Derozan and Bargniani are solid players, so Barbosa, Calderon and Jack. I'm not saying we're going to be last year Bucks, but with one or two more moves with role players (another SF and an improvement to Amir), we could have a better season than everyone expected.

    And don't worry about season's preview that are destroing the Raptors. They're doing the same with Khan, Rambis and the Twolves and they're 5-1 in the preseason. It's too early to judge, i know but they're another young team without superstars, but in my opinon they're in the right direction (don't forget that kidd Rubio that is coming next year). Last year preview of the Bucks were painful too, and look where they finished

  • #2
    well said - finally some optimism about the raps! kleiza is gonna be dirrttyyy this season
    Your ex came by; you can call me Jonas Valanciunas, cause I'm the king of rebounds!

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    • #3
      It's a nice thought, but you simply can't win much without a superstar. You can certainly compete, but that's about it. That Orlando team certainly worked hard and did MUCH better than anyone anticipated, but they still only finished .500 and out of the playoffs. And you're also forgetting Ben Wallace, although he hadn't become the player he would with the Pistons, he was still very good and I felt it was a bad move to give him up in the Grant Hill deal. Obviously I didn't think it was as bad a move as it would later become, but still.

      I think the Raptors could conceivably compete, but even Milwaukee only won 46 games and didn't get past the first round. Atlanta is a team without a true superstar and it's why they've pretty much hit their ceiling as a team.
      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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      • #4
        Sounds like some more of the same media shit both BC & Jay have been kicking to fans all summer and calling it steak.smh I want TO in the playoffs this season but it's not a reality as is unless other teams above TO suffer major player injuries I just don't see this roster as a playoff roster but that's why they play the games...

        As well, the Raptor's would be better served with a true star player or two on the roster don't be fooled by the words to the contrary coming from BC & Jay. They would love to have CB in TO right about now. It's all MLSE PR spins- similar to politicians politicking to voters in an election ie lying, misleading & deceiving. Btw- shouldn't Bargnani be the Franchise going on his 5th year? Bosh was the Franchise player in TO after his 2nd or 3rd year after VC left...smh

        Orlando as you said had Doc Rivers as the head coach not Jay "I liked the effort" Triano- big difference right there plus they weren't catering to a franchise player who wasn't a franchise player ie Bargnani, and had a roster full of hustle players ie 12 cups of pre game coffee Armstrong.lol

        Milwaukee Bucks have Scott Skiles a hard nose no excuses type of coach- Bargnani would be glued to the bench until he overstood defense, rebounding, boxing out, posting up and so forth not rewarded with a guaranteed preseason starting spot. One could argue the BJennings was the star in the media last season for Milwaukee. Bogut, when healthy, is a true big man just watch how he pounds Barg's in the paint when TO plays Milwaukee. Plus Milwaukee has a real system not some flavor of the month shit Jay is trying to duplicate ie Team USA. Memo to Jay- TO is not Team USA.....

        Bargnani, no matter how much he scores, his lackadaisical in game effort is not lost on his teammates and/or fans alike it seems like only BC, Gherardini & Jay condone Bargnani's on court indifferences in my mind. They coddle Bargnani so much so that he has become lethargic in his player growth. Every year it's the same shit from Bargnani- work hard, get better, be the best and still has the same shortcomings- rebounding/defense/hustling, as he did as a rookie...smh

        Comparing Toronto to perennial NBA bottom feeder Minnesota (Btw- Rubio is not all that)- has it really come down to this for the Raptor faithful????

        Unless BC works some TPE magic, I think that the TPE will most likely expire & go unused, and adds more payroll to the roster it will most likely be a very long season in TO as not one player is considered to be a star in a star driven league plus Jay is the coach which means Bargnani can do no wrong......smh

        Give me 20 games into the regular season for a better insight but as of right now I still see 15-30 wins for TO depending on how fast they come together as a team with the roster as is. I'm not impressed in the least with TO's current roster that has Bargnani as the Franchise player nor none of the bull chit off season/preseason rhetoric coming from MLSE- I don't believe you, you need more people!!!
        Last edited by SirChillyMost; Mon Oct 18, 2010, 02:10 AM.

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        • #5
          As far as succeeding without a star, please see the Ewing Theory.

          http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=1193711

          You're right in your assesment, Milwaukee is not a team with a star and was successful because they have a COACH and a legitimate system. Now, as far as the Raps are concerned as a team, I would take Bosh's departure as motivation. Seeing how the circus ended last summer, it is in the best interest of the team's pride to do better in the absence of a "star". It's a way to say, "Chris, we didn't really need you after all." Well, if the world is perfect, the team can say that.



          SirChillyMost wrote: View Post

          Bargnani, no matter how much he scores, his lackadaisical in game effort is not lost on his teammates and/or fans alike it seems like only BC, Gherardini & Jay condone Bargnani's on court indifferences in my mind. They coddle Bargnani so much so that he has become lethargic in his player growth. Every year it's the same shit from Bargnani- work hard, get better, be the best and still has the same shortcomings- rebounding/defense/hustling, as he did as a rookie...smh

          Unless BC works some TPE magic, I think that the TPE will most likely expire & go unused, and adds more payroll to the roster it will most likely be a very long season in TO as not one player is considered to be a star in a star driven league plus Jay is the coach which means Bargnani can do no wrong......smh
          +1,000. The reality is that the franchise, especially BC has done everything to mask the deficiencies of his #1 pick. If the coach happens to be Brown, Rivers, Skiles and Brooks, Bargs won't be peeling off his warm-up pants until he understands how to spell defence. As far as the TPE is concerned, I hope you're wrong. However, after looking at BC's track record, I have a feeling that if the team reels after the first 20 games, he might pull it and use it. My prediction, depending on how New Orleans gets off the ground, BC may go after Okafor. This is a wild hunch without any solid proof of course.
          Last edited by Balls of Steel; Mon Oct 18, 2010, 07:09 AM.
          “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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          • #6
            There is a lot to be said about having a system in your offense and I have aways thought a disciplined team of good players will always beat a team of 4 average players and a superstar. Hence why Lebron hasn't won a title yet. The think in the NBA is players are at such a high level, specialization occurs. I always like to think about the Stockton Melone Jazz, they are the quintessential version of an NBA system team. Molone or Stockton would have have been superstars no matter where they were but you put them in the system they played in, put great three point shooters and lunch pale guys around them, and you get a team that if not for Jordon, would have been a dynasty. That's the thing here: the Raps can over achieve with a system but we don't have the players to use a system to its full advantage. Euro ball is great, but against teams like the Celtics that have both an effective system and a team of stars, it's useless.
            "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

            -Churchill

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            • #7
              One observation re your op (not a bad one) is the Milwaukee case where Bogut was in fact the mvp of that team. He was consistent in his game and his defensive presence in the middle (more than his offense) is what separates this Raptors team from a favourable comparision. We are not even close to having someone like him unless Amir or Davis can match his defense along the way. But they are not centres. Maybe we can try to get Chandler again! And, you mentioned something about coaching (Skyles)...enough said

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              • #8
                First off Raptors didnt have a superstar when Bosh WAS here....
                Secondly NBA is a stars league,cant win in the NBA without star players...Pistons in 04 was an anamoly for alot more
                than just they didnt have a legit superstar.....its not even about stars with this team,10-11 Raptors doesnt even have anything close to even a second tier player....

                truthfully were on par with alot of those pre VC teams minus and even on those teams at least we had mighty mouse....

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                • #9
                  I dont get why we have top be optimistic ? Just call it what it is who cares if its negative or not.....Negative isnt always so bad it means the fan base cares at least,id rather negativity then total apathy (altho that may not be far off after this season)

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                  • #10
                    Memphis is also a good example. They're 6-0 this preseason and last year, no one expected to finished with the record they had. Randolph is not a Superstar, is a good player but can be negative to his team. They have a balanced starting unit a two or three good back ups

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                    • #11
                      Raúl wrote: View Post
                      Memphis is also a good example. They're 6-0 this preseason and last year, no one expected to finished with the record they had. Randolph is not a Superstar, is a good player but can be negative to his team. They have a balanced starting unit a two or three good back ups
                      Randolph gets you 20/10 yearly plus he played in the 2010 NBA All Star game- recognize.lol

                      MGasol/Thabeet
                      ZRandolph/DArthur
                      RGay/SYoung/DCarroll
                      OJMayo/TAllen/XHenry
                      MConley/ALaw


                      Memphis has a real center in Marc Gasol. A real 20/10 pf in Randolph. Solid young athletic wings in Mayo & Gay. Plus an up & coming pg in Conley as well Memphis just signed ex Celtic lockdown defender Tony Allen as a f/a this summer to be their 6th man. As well Lionel Hollins is a solid coach with a real basketball system. I would trade TO's roster for Memphis' roster in a quick second. I don't care for their owner though as he's a snake in the grass...smh

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                      • #12
                        Raúl wrote: View Post
                        Memphis is also a good example. They're 6-0 this preseason and last year, no one expected to finished with the record they had. Randolph is not a Superstar, is a good player but can be negative to his team. They have a balanced starting unit a two or three good back ups
                        Like I said, you can compete with a non superstar team, but Memphis didn't make the playoffs last year and probably won't again this year. You want to be a true contender, you need a superstar.

                        So what exactly are you saying? That you think the Raptors can compete with the team they have? Ideally, they can, but they simply aren't talented enough at this point. Memphis has three guys that are probably better than anyone on the Raptors. The same is probably true of Milwaukee. You don't need a superstar to compete, but you still need more talent than the Raptors currently have.
                        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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