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What does "retooling" mean ?

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  • #31
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    The dude turned over almost the entire roster. What does he need to do before you would call it a rebuild?



    And why not? A rebuild involves tearing down what is built and building something different. That's what Colangelo did. He tore down what existed and rebuilt something new.

    He doesn't want to use the term "rebuild" because that sort of talk leads to lower ticket sales. That's my opinion anyway.
    not different... what if he traded all the players for players who were 35 years old... would that be a re-build just cuz its different ?

    no a rebuild requires getting rid of as many big contracts and old players as possible in exchange for draft picks and young players...

    getting rasho, reggie, and antoine wright are not part of a rebuild... thats called patch work, and hoping to slip into the 8th seed.

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    • #32
      Apollo wrote: View Post
      You call it a retooling, I'll call it a rebuild and we'll have to agree to disagree. I think Colangelo's words are pure spin. How many retooling projects do you see go from being competitive in most games to getting their ass handed to them 80% of the time? Sounds more like the results of a rebuild to me...
      but who exactly is developing ? the symptoms of a rebuild and just being a horrible team are the same...

      but in the rebuild, you have young players who you hope 2-3 years from now will take the team to the promise land...

      we dont even have a young C or PG that should be using this year to develop...

      is jose part of the rebuild ? wat about jack ? barbosa ? kleiza ? bargs ? amir ? reggie ? DA ? would matt barnes have been part of the rebuild ?

      you really think sonny weems and demar derozan are going to hold it down in 2-3 years?

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      • #33
        Tim W. wrote: View Post
        And you say this because you have a direct link to the future? I think what you mean to say is that you THINK he will do that. Personally, I've seen nothing in Colangelo's past that would give me an indication he will do that.
        what part of it havnt you seen ? the handing out of bad contracts ?
        the trading away of draft picks ?
        the shitty half ass signings like matt barnes, kapono, hedo, to just patch up the team instead of actually allowing someone to develop ?

        which part have you not seen ?

        the tpe expires... you really think BC is not gona use it ?

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        • #34
          Apollo wrote: View Post
          There's lots in his past to indicate that he could take another gamble on a big contract. Marbury, Penny and Jermaine O'Neal are three prime examples.
          exactly... can you say agent 0, ak47, b gordan, baron davis...etc

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          • #35
            Legalize-It wrote: View Post
            not different... what if he traded all the players for players who were 35 years old... would that be a re-build just cuz its different ?
            Yes, it would be a rebuild.

            Legalize-It wrote: View Post
            no a rebuild requires getting rid of as many big contracts and old players as possible in exchange for draft picks and young players...
            A rebuild requires rebuilding the team. The value of the contracts and the age of the players doesn't mean squat. You're describing the typical rebuild and kicking everything else out of the box.

            If you feel so adamant about these rebuild rules you're describing then tell me the cut off point for age? What age is too old to let a transition be considered a rebuild? Also please let me know what contract value is too high to make a transition be deemed a rebuild?
            Last edited by Apollo; Fri Nov 19, 2010, 02:11 AM.

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            • #36
              if a rebuild just meant getting new players, why are so many people afraid of it ? wouldnt more people be begging for a "rebuild" ?

              its b/c it doesnt just mean getting new players, it means, trying to acquire as many draft picks and young players as possible...and trying to get rid of as many long term contracts and vets as possible...


              then allowing those young players to develop TOGETHER...

              there is no development when you have matt barnes, boris diaw, tyson chandler, and linus kleiza...

              so the point is, if rebuilding just meant making trades, then it woudnt be so scary... but rebuilding is developing young players going through growing pains, in an attempt to have a rose/noah, durant/westbrook, mayo/gay/gasol, combination in the future...
              Last edited by Legalize-It; Thu Nov 18, 2010, 11:41 PM.

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              • #37
                Legalize-It wrote: View Post
                what part of it havnt you seen ? the handing out of bad contracts ?
                the trading away of draft picks ?
                the shitty half ass signings like matt barnes, kapono, hedo, to just patch up the team instead of actually allowing someone to develop ?

                which part have you not seen ?

                the tpe expires... you really think BC is not gona use it ?
                The only player Colangelo has traded away that he drafted was Nathan Jawai. The only draft pick (of any note) that Colangelo has been responsible for trading away (and didn't get back) in the four years he has been in charge of the Raptors was the 2008 first round pick. The Raptors currently have TWO first round draft picks for next June.

                When Bosh was a Raptor, the focus was on trying to win now, which meant signing and trading for veterans. Now that he's gone, the focus is on retooling/rebuilding. That can be seen with the fact that Colangelo insisted on draft picks in return for the sign and trade of Bosh. It can also be seen in the fact that Colangelo didn't use the TPE during the summer, when there are more players available. It can also be seen in the fact that Ed Davis was drafted instead of a player who might make more of an immediate impact, or instead of simply trading the pick away for a veteran player. It can be seen in the fact that 9 of the Raptors on the team are under the age of 27.

                And I have no idea whether Colangelo is going to use the TPE and neither do you. If he does, I hope he does it in order to acquire a draft pick or a young player. In order to acquire a draft pick, he might have to do what Oklahoma City did and take on a veteran with a big contract, like they did with Morris Peterson. Or like Washington did with Kirk Hinrich.
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                Follow me on Twitter.

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                • #38
                  Legalize-It wrote: View Post
                  if a rebuild just meant getting new players, why are so many people afraid of it ? wouldnt more people be begging for a "rebuild" ?

                  its b/c it doesnt just mean getting new players, it means, trying to acquire as many draft picks and young players as possible...and trying to get rid of as many long term contracts and vets as possible...


                  then allowing those young players to develop TOGETHER...

                  there is no development when you have matt barnes, boris diaw, tyson chandler, and linus kleiza...

                  so the point is, if rebuilding just meant making trades, then it woudnt be so scary... but rebuilding is developing young players going through growing pains, in an attempt to have a rose/noah, durant/westbrook, mayo/gay/gasol, combination in the future...
                  Developing players like DeMar, Amir, Weems and Davis? And the trade to get Diaw and Chandler was, in part, to clear contract, which is what teams often do when they're rebuilding. Chandler's contract is expiring and Diaw expires the next season. As for Kleiza, the guy is 25 years old and was signed to a reasonable contract. And he plays a position the Raptors were sorely lacking at.
                  Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                  Follow me on Twitter.

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                  • #39
                    Legalize-It wrote: View Post
                    if a rebuild just meant getting new players, why are so many people afraid of it ? wouldnt more people be begging for a "rebuild" ?

                    its b/c it doesnt just mean getting new players, it means, trying to acquire as many draft picks and young players as possible...and trying to get rid of as many long term contracts and vets as possible...


                    then allowing those young players to develop TOGETHER...

                    there is no development when you have matt barnes, boris diaw, tyson chandler, and linus kleiza...

                    so the point is, if rebuilding just meant making trades, then it woudnt be so scary... but rebuilding is developing young players going through growing pains, in an attempt to have a rose/noah, durant/westbrook, mayo/gay/gasol, combination in the future...
                    The Celtics rebuilt by flipping young talent for star veterans Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett. Everyone called it a rebuild and they had no real focus on developing anybody outside of Rondo and Perkins. I get what you're saying but I don't agree it's as black and white as that. Most rebuilds involve tearing it down, bringing in young prospects and developing them together but not all rebuilds work that way. The Celtics are a prime example.

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                    • #40
                      Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      The only player Colangelo has traded away that he drafted was Nathan Jawai. The only draft pick (of any note) that Colangelo has been responsible for trading away (and didn't get back) in the four years he has been in charge of the Raptors was the 2008 first round pick. The Raptors currently have TWO first round draft picks for next June.

                      When Bosh was a Raptor, the focus was on trying to win now, which meant signing and trading for veterans. Now that he's gone, the focus is on retooling/rebuilding. That can be seen with the fact that Colangelo insisted on draft picks in return for the sign and trade of Bosh. It can also be seen in the fact that Colangelo didn't use the TPE during the summer, when there are more players available. It can also be seen in the fact that Ed Davis was drafted instead of a player who might make more of an immediate impact, or instead of simply trading the pick away for a veteran player. It can be seen in the fact that 9 of the Raptors on the team are under the age of 27.

                      And I have no idea whether Colangelo is going to use the TPE and neither do you. If he does, I hope he does it in order to acquire a draft pick or a young player. In order to acquire a draft pick, he might have to do what Oklahoma City did and take on a veteran with a big contract, like they did with Morris Peterson. Or like Washington did with Kirk Hinrich.
                      the only reason we got a draft pick back for bosh, IS BECAUSE MIAMI HAD NO ONE ELSE LEFT ON THEIR ROSTER !

                      who traded roy hibbert ?

                      how did we get david anderson ? he also traded a draft pick for D A... i can go on but its useless talking to you tim...

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                      • #41
                        Apollo wrote: View Post
                        The Celtics rebuilt by flipping young talent for star veterans Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett. Everyone called it a rebuild and they had no real focus on developing anybody outside of Rondo and Perkins. I get what you're saying but I don't agree it's as black and white as that. Most rebuilds involve tearing it down, bringing in young prospects and developing them together but not all rebuilds work that way. The Celtics are a prime example.
                        but the celtics and the 2010 heat are the exception to the rule... it wouldnt make sense for the raptors to even fool themselves into thinking they can go out and sign 3 big name free agents...

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                        • #42
                          Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          The only player Colangelo has traded away that he drafted was Nathan Jawai. The only draft pick (of any note) that Colangelo has been responsible for trading away (and didn't get back) in the four years he has been in charge of the Raptors was the 2008 first round pick. The Raptors currently have TWO first round draft picks for next June.

                          When Bosh was a Raptor, the focus was on trying to win now, which meant signing and trading for veterans. Now that he's gone, the focus is on retooling/rebuilding. That can be seen with the fact that Colangelo insisted on draft picks in return for the sign and trade of Bosh. It can also be seen in the fact that Colangelo didn't use the TPE during the summer, when there are more players available. It can also be seen in the fact that Ed Davis was drafted instead of a player who might make more of an immediate impact, or instead of simply trading the pick away for a veteran player. It can be seen in the fact that 9 of the Raptors on the team are under the age of 27.

                          And I have no idea whether Colangelo is going to use the TPE and neither do you. If he does, I hope he does it in order to acquire a draft pick or a young player. In order to acquire a draft pick, he might have to do what Oklahoma City did and take on a veteran with a big contract, like they did with Morris Peterson. Or like Washington did with Kirk Hinrich.
                          more players will be available as the season goes on, as teams who thought they had a shot at making the playoffs, learn that they dont and go into clearing big contracts mode... you know this too tim...

                          also you say how bc drafted davis, a guy that wont have an immediate impact.... well what do you expect from a 13th pick ?
                          Last edited by Legalize-It; Fri Nov 19, 2010, 01:30 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Legalize-It wrote: View Post
                            the only reason we got a draft pick back for bosh, IS BECAUSE MIAMI HAD NO ONE ELSE LEFT ON THEIR ROSTER !

                            who traded roy hibbert ?

                            how did we get david anderson ? he also traded a draft pick for D A... i can go on but its useless talking to you tim...
                            Well, Colangelo got their draft pick back, as well as Miami's, because they wanted to rebuild with Bosh leaving.

                            Colangelo drafted Hibbert for Indiana because the O'Neal trade couldn't go through until July.

                            And David Andersen was traded for a CONDITIONAL 2nd round pick whose conditions will most likely never have been met.

                            I really care very little about the trading of 2nd round picks because they are so easily acquired. The Raptors didn't have one in the last draft but were easily able to get the player the wanted in the second round.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

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                            • #44
                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              Well, Colangelo got their draft pick back, as well as Miami's, because they wanted to rebuild with Bosh leaving.

                              Colangelo drafted Hibbert for Indiana because the O'Neal trade couldn't go through until July.

                              And David Andersen was traded for a CONDITIONAL 2nd round pick whose conditions will most likely never have been met.

                              I really care very little about the trading of 2nd round picks because they are so easily acquired. The Raptors didn't have one in the last draft but were easily able to get the player the wanted in the second round.
                              yea so you asked when has bc traded away draft picks... and you already knew the answer.

                              and you also knew that miami had NO ONE on the roster outside of wade and chalmers, so BC had no choice to take back a draft pick...

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                              • #45
                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                Well, Colangelo got their draft pick back, as well as Miami's, because they wanted to rebuild with Bosh leaving.

                                Colangelo drafted Hibbert for Indiana because the O'Neal trade couldn't go through until July.
                                And David Andersen was traded for a CONDITIONAL 2nd round pick whose conditions will most likely never have been met.

                                I really care very little about the trading of 2nd round picks because they are so easily acquired. The Raptors didn't have one in the last draft but were easily able to get the player the wanted in the second round.
                                an anterestinng choice of words...

                                another way to say it is:

                                the raptors TRADED a 1st round pick in the j.o. trade...

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