Feelings About The Playoffs And Tanking

[Apollo]

He had no choice to rebuild. He lost his star and no way he was going to get a player with the TPE good enough to place them in serious contention.

[LBF]

all i know is if bayless doesn't start being more steve nash and less like a shooting guard he is going to be a back up forever.

[Balls of Steel]

What if, for some insane freak of nature, modern day miracle, by the hand of god, leap of faith....Ajinca does good beside Bargs, Reggie comes back and continues to be a rebound monster, everybody is healthy and trey johnson surprises....and we make the playoffs.

Would you be pissed or happy?

You are right, it would take a miracle to get these bunch into the playoffs so I'm not worried about that. Not being negative, just realistic that's all. Hello, "top five" would be nice.

[heinz57]

Last edited by Apollo; Today at 01:30 PM. Reason: Inappropriate.


BOOO!!!! but you're totally right. my bad

[Apollo]

Sites are starting to beat up on Harrison Barnes. Draft Express has him in at 9th now. If that were to play out the Raptors wouldn't need to be in the top five to get a guy who would fit well. Ed fell to them last year. If Harrison Barnes did the same this year that would be sweet. DeRozan struggled through most of his first season at USC and ended up going 9th too...

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

To be honest I'm kind of sick of these kind of threads. To tank or not to tank. Who's a true fan, and who isn't. Between this and other boards there have probably been 50 different threads all centered around the draft pick/losing record/playoffs dilemma.

Clearly it's good for the team to make the playoffs. It's good for the team to feel as if they are good enough as players to compete, rather than acknowledge that they must wait for someone who was in high school last year to turn their own career paths around. Playoffs bring unrivaled experience and confidence. That being said, the second last thing I would want for the Raps is for them to become like Indiana or Charlotte - perpetually on the playoff cusp, never a real threat, mediocore through and through. The last thing I would want is for the Raps to be like the Nets, the Kings, the Clips: perpetually stuck at the bottom of the league, regardless of how many high draft picks they've had. Losing breeds losing, and it's a terrible mentality. Either way, though, the biggest problem is that these are the teams to which the Raps draw the most frequent comparisons. In order for the Raps to become relevant, that has to change.

Above the playoffs and the draft, it's the mentality of the team and the organization that turns the average team into perpetual contenders. If the mentality and capabilities aren't there, then it doesn't matter how many times a team has made the playoffs or had high lottery picks.

True. But the difference between Indiana/Charlotte and the Raps, is that the Raps have a good GM. A GM who is not afraid to make deals, and who always seem to have a backup plan incase those deals dont pan out. If you look at the J.O'Neal/TJ deal, on the surface, seems like a bad deal for both, guy who is always injured for a guy who just got out of an injury and is playing erratic, but what you dont see is that J.O.s contract expires in 2 years, TJ, 4. And BC was able to trade J.O. when it didnt work out, while TJ eventhough the pacers want to trade him, is still in indiana. And the thing with BC is, he isnt trading good players for bad ones, he trades bad players for ok ones, and potentially can be used for future trades or expirings.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

To be fair to Wall, Point Guards need another player to dominate with, as their position really precludes them from taking over enough to win consistently. After Wall, the Wizards really have no upper-tier player.

so if we get a top caliber PG in the draft, that means we need to get a big man for him to play with. and probably we wont get a decent one because it will be another losing season, so we wait again for the draft, thats 2 years. another season to get the chemistry down between the PG and the big, so thats 3 years. by that time, you wont have assets coz youve been a losing team so GMs think your players are crap, the PG gets out of his rookie contract and wants more money to stay in your crappy team, so you pay him and now your big is about to come out of his rookie contract so now you have to pay him the big bucks or else he'll leave. so now, youve been stuck with 3 losing season and 2 players with big fat contracts. yikes.

[Tim W.]

Wow, I'm sorry the level of desperation here is pretty appalling. We WANT our team to tank and get a high draft pick, just so MAYBE down the future, we'll have drafted some superstar who can take us somewhere?

You know...a few years ago, when I was I think...13, a basketball team in Ohio drafted this local player who everyone considered a phenom. Within 4 years, this kid had practically led them to the finals, was consistently winning, and it seemed everyone in that city was happy. But here's what the intelligent fans in the NBA realized. That team was only winning because of one guy, there was no winning mentality within the organization as a whole. They had literally won the lottery, and were riding the coattails of it. And what happened last summer? Even after this team posted 2 consecutive years of winning the most games, even though they consistently got to the playoffs, it was only because of that one person, that one player that everyone put their "hopes and dreams" on. And what happened? He couldn't handle that pressure by himself, so he left, and now that team is nowhere...dead last, looking for a savior to show up from the draft again, to once again attempt to lead them to the Promised Land.

My point? Great players shouldn't make teams, because it doesn't last forever. Great teams are the ones that make players, and bring other players in to keep that greatness going. Shaq was done and out since his last year with the Heat, but look at the resurgence he has on a good team in Boston. The system, winningness and tough mentality that team has lets everyone play at a higher level. Yes, Chicago may have gotten lucky drafting Derrick Rose, but they did that in a pretty strong year. Let's face it, outside of the top 5, who else is really going to be in this draft? Hell, even from last year's draft, besides John Wall and Landry Fields, who else really looks like they can be something in the future?

We have fantastic players in Derozan, Johnson, Davis, Bayless and to a certain extent in Bargnani. We NEED to develop a winning mentality and culture in this city and in this team NOW. It's the only way we can get out of this rut that we've been in pretty much since Vince left (or perhaps, since Vince got injured). That's all I've heard people say since then "we just need another High draft pick like Vince". We HAD BOSH, we got Bargnani, We have Derozan, but were still not there. Superstars only come by once every few years people. This year is definitely not a year to look to the draft. We need to start really hoping this team wins, even if it means sneaking into the playoffs with an under .500 record, because you know what? it's still the playoffs. Joakin Noah was just your average player before the playoffs in the last two years. Now he's an integral part of the Chicago system.

If we end up getting a top-5 pick this summer, as far as I'm concerned, it's a consolation prize. IF we make it to the playoffs, then there's actual HOPE for the future.

Not so sound like a condescending old guy (well, I guess it's too late for that), but when you've studied, not just followed but studied, the NBA for as long as I have, you start seeing trends. You see what works and what doesn't. You get a better view of the big picture.

Making the playoffs should definitely be a goal for the franchise, but I think far too many people are pinning WAY too much on it. And those people seem to have a shockingly short memory. DO people forget that the Raptors MADE the playoffs just two and a half years ago? Two years in a row the Raptors made the playoffs. And two years in a row the Raptors lost in the first round. And then two years in a row the Raptors didn't make the playoffs. And now we're here.

Creating a system of winning is great, but you need to have the players, first. And the Raptors simply don't have the players, yet.

And one of the reasons the Cavs lost LeBron is because they didn't have the talent around him. They were badly managed. Case in point, they now have the worst record in the league the season after he left. And I and others had been saying it for years that Cleveland had little talent outside of LeBron.

And no one has any illusions that the draft is a guarantee of anything, but your point that, outside of the top 5, or so, there isn't much talent is EXACTLY WHY I WANT THE RAPTORS TO FINISH IN THE BOTTOM FIVE. If the Raptors get the top pick and draft Kyrie Irving, who cares how deep the draft is. The year San Antonio drafted Tim Duncan, 5 of the top 10 players drafted averaged fewer than 30 mpg over the course of their career. Guys like Antonio Daniels, Tony Battie, Adonal Foyle and Danny Forston never amounted to much. You don't need a deep draft to draft a great player.

DeRozan and Davis have a bright future. I also like Amir and Bayless. But none of them are franchise players and most likely never will be.

Chicago HAD Derrick Rose when they made the playoffs. And if you think the playoffs made Noah, all that proves is you didn't watch Chicago much.

[jeff_hostetler]

True. But the difference between Indiana/Charlotte and the Raps, is that the Raps have a good GM. A GM who is not afraid to make deals, and who always seem to have a backup plan incase those deals dont pan out.

My favourite ongoing Raptors story:

Charlie Villanueva for TJ Ford for Jermaine O'Neal for Shawn Marion for Hedo Turkoglu for Leandro Barbosa. Does it end with Barbosa? Nobody knows!

[jeff_hostetler]

so if we get a top caliber PG in the draft, that means we need to get a big man for him to play with. and probably we wont get a decent one because it will be another losing season, so we wait again for the draft, thats 2 years. another season to get the chemistry down between the PG and the big, so thats 3 years. by that time, you wont have assets coz youve been a losing team so GMs think your players are crap, the PG gets out of his rookie contract and wants more money to stay in your crappy team, so you pay him and now your big is about to come out of his rookie contract so now you have to pay him the big bucks or else he'll leave. so now, youve been stuck with 3 losing season and 2 players with big fat contracts. yikes.

I don't see it that way. Say the Raps get a top quality PG in the draft. For argument's sake let's call him Kyrie Irving.

If you've got Irving, Derozan, _, Ed Davis and Bargnani, all you need is to fill that blank with a quality defensive 3 who can hit the open J and in general act a utility guy - of which there are many - and you'll be in the playoffs for the next 3-4 years at least. Derozan has the shortest contract of those 4, with two years remaining. I can't forsee him signing elsewhere if this is the core the Raps have. So. Irving, a point who can dribble, penetrate, score, pass and defend with the best of them, has two 20 point scorers to assist him. That's plenty. If you get that defensive 3, then that's 3/5 better than average defenders in your starting 5. Pretty solid if you ask me. I also am confident that down the line Alabi will turn into something useful.

The Wiz have nothing like the Raps in terms of quality players to surround an elite young PG.

[Tim W.]

What I am is a fan who doesn't believe I need to fit in either one of your designed buckets. What I am is a fan who is concerned with the long term, who has been a fan since day one and who realizes that tanking doesn't solve anything.

Well, apparently you don't consider me a true fan....

The high draft pick would be great but no true fan could say they'd be mad about their team in the playoffs.

...so we obviously disagree on a few things. And "tanking" is a loaded word. I'm certainly not suggesting the players try to lose. That would be horrible for their development. And asking Triano to purposely lose would be just as bad. As a fan, though, I can watch them lose and not feel so bad because I know it's best for the team, long term. It doesn't mean they're tanking.

No, it doesn't.

Why do you believe that making the playoffs wouldn't doom the team to mediocrity?

The Raptors biggest problem is image. There's a reason why the good teams seem to always restock talent. Players want to go there because they have a respect, a proven system based on a good track record. High pick or not, if the Raptors don't establish stability they will never go anywhere. Outside the consensus top picks #5 could be no better than #10 or #15. I trust Colangelo's draft track record and I know where ever they land that he's going to select the guy he and his team feel is the most talented player on the board. Not to mention, for the third time, that they have the assets to trade up. If it makes sense to you to cheer against your team then by all means, proceed.

Actually, the biggest problem the team has is they're not a good team. Being a perennial contender solves a lot of image problems. Sneaking into the playoffs doesn't, or have you forgotten the history of the franchise? And, again, my point is that, especially in this draft, you pretty much need to be in the top five in the draft to find a good player. And there may be only one true star.

Jennings' true FG% is close to 50% this season, that's better than a guy like Deron Williams in his second year...The league wide perception seemed to be they got there because Jennings added the star power they needed to overcome obstacles and had he not been on that team they would not have made it. He seemed like their MVP to me. He was drafted tenth by the way. Seems like talent can be found outside the humiliation of finishing close to dead last in the league.

Jennings was drafted 10th in a deep draft, and he was obviously a big part of them going to the playoffs. And so was Andrew Bogut, and John Salmons, whose trade to the team coincided with their turnaround and eventually making the playoffs.

As for Jennings, I'm not writing him off, but the fact is he shoots under 40% and takes a lot of shots. And his little tirade against Basketball USA for not selecting him because he wears the wrong shoes certainly doesn't instil a lot of confidence.

[Tim W.]

Give me an example of when that's happened because I don't know of one ever.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Right now, Charlotte has the 8th spot in the East and have a .419 winning percentage, which over 82 games translates to 34 wins.

Why don't you tell us how many teams who tanked and got high draft choices won championships in the last 20 years? Where is your evidence that tanking builds long term winners?

You keep harping on the "tanking" thing. As a fan, I have absolutely no control over whether they win or not. I'm not suggesting that the Raptors "tank". That's just plain stupid and would only work if you then traded the entire team afterwards because asking players to lose would kill their development. And asking a coach to purposely lose would also be detrimental to the player's development. There's a MASSIVE difference between trying to lose and simply losing. It's not as if the Raptors are a half decent team and I'm calling for them to purposely lose games. They will lose anyway, I just don't feel bad when they do.

Tanking may, or may not work, but being a team that sneaks into the playoffs never helps a team win a CHampionship, either.

Missing the playoffs helped Vince Carter's and Chris Bosh's teams less. Missing the playoffs caused the Raptors lose both star players and have their name tossed through the mud by media types across North America.

I'm not condoning continually missing the playoffs. You do realize that, don't you? I'm simply hoping the Raptors miss the playoffs this year and hopefully get an elite player in the draft so they never have to miss the playoffs again. At least for the next ten years, or so.

Most of the league would place the Raptors in Clippers in the same tier. No wonder some media types are already talking about how Blake Grffin will be leaving town first chance he gets. The Clippers are a joke to most, just like the Raptors.

The Clippers are a badly managed team. Any team that has been as badly managed as the Clippers have over the last 30 years deserves to be the joke. Until Donald Sterling sells the team, they will always be a joke. No matter who they draft.

If you think the Raptors are as badly managed as the Clippers, then there's really no hope for the franchise. I don't.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

My favourite ongoing Raptors story:

Charlie Villanueva for TJ Ford for Jermaine O'Neal for Shawn Marion for Hedo Turkoglu for Leandro Barbosa. Does it end with Barbosa? Nobody knows!

hahaha

[Apollo]

Well, apparently you don't consider me a true fan....

Maybe that was too harsh but I definitely feel that those who are rooting against the Raptors are certainly misguided.

...so we obviously disagree on a few things. And "tanking" is a loaded word. I'm certainly not suggesting the players try to lose. That would be horrible for their development. And asking Triano to purposely lose would be just as bad. As a fan, though, I can watch them lose and not feel so bad because I know it's best for the team, long term. It doesn't mean they're tanking.

You said you would prefer they lose. I said if they lose, fine. If they make the playoffs, fine. I see the benefit in both. My problem was with people saying there was little value in them making the playoffs.

Why do you believe that making the playoffs wouldn't doom the team to mediocrity?

Why should I? It means they're improving and coming together far faster than should have been expected. To me that would suggest that the coaches are getting it right and so too are the players. On top of that they get experience on a more difficult stage and come away with first hand knowledge of what it takes to be successful in the pressure cooker known as the NBA playoffs.

Actually, the biggest problem the team has is they're not a good team. Being a perennial contender solves a lot of image problems. Sneaking into the playoffs doesn't, or have you forgotten the history of the franchise? And, again, my point is that, especially in this draft, you pretty much need to be in the top five in the draft to find a good player. And there may be only one true star.

I disagree. Every draft has a handful of players who are taken outside the top five who go on to have excellent careers. Colangelo has an excellent track record in drafting guy outside the top 5. He built a contender on guys drafted outside the top five. History tells me that if they're drafting outside the top Colangelo more than likely will add a very nice player. For the fourth time I will mention the fact that they have two first rounders and over $10M in the TPE to help use on draft night to move up to get their guy no matter where they are. And if you're right about the draft being weak then all the more reason to believe their will be sellers in the draft.

Jennings was drafted 10th in a deep draft, and he was obviously a big part of them going to the playoffs. And so was Andrew Bogut, and John Salmons, whose trade to the team coincided with their turnaround and eventually making the playoffs.

People were calling that one a weak draft before hand. You take Jenning off that team and they don't go to the playoffs. Salmons played 30 games for them. Bogut missed 13. Not saying they didn't contribute but I am saying in my opinion Jenning was the most valuable player on that team and still is.

As for Jennings, I'm not writing him off, but the fact is he shoots under 40% and takes a lot of shots. And his little tirade against Basketball USA for not selecting him because he wears the wrong shoes certainly doesn't instil a lot of confidence.

He's been as model NBA citizen from the first tip off of last season. The fact he got snubbed and took it hard tell shows me his competitiveness. I'm not sure why he didn't get picked but he deserved to be on the team. Maybe he's right? I don't know what goes on behind closed doors but he made some interesting observations...

[webcrawler89]

EDIT: @ Tim W.'s reply to my original comment (Sorry, I thought I quoted it, still trying to figure this site out)

I'm curious, what is your definition of a franchise player?

players don't tend to stay in a team unless they respect the franchise/organization or feel that it has the winning mentality that they want. That's why teams like Boston and Lakers and Spurs and Orlando etc are able to attract talent.

Obviously, there's no clear-cut simple answer to this. A team needs to have a good overall organization to be a successfully winning team. But to say that it starts with simply tanking to get a high draft pick is ludicrous. Why not try to start it by really pushing our current players to their limits, try squeezing every amount of effort out of them?

And we don't know how well Irving may even be as an NBA player, as you so pointed out with the Tim Duncan draft, a high pick doesn't always guarantee a good player. Look at Evan Turner now, he has occasional good games, but is nowhere near what people expected of him. Even his GM (or I think it's the owner) thinks he doesn't deserve the ball in his hands.

There's no reason to think Derozan can't be a franchise player, and an actual good one. He's got the work ethic, he's got the attitude, he has the skills and he has the potential. A few months ago he couldn't even dribble into the paint without getting stripped, and now he looks like he can practically glide through some defenses.

Look I'm not against the draft as a means of getting better, but within the context of our situation, we need to make the playoffs.