Maybe this is a red herring but...

[verbatim]

Everyone who thought that the team (and Bargnani in particular) was being held back by Bosh, should have ample opportunity to see that we were much better with him than without him.

This is not post to harp on Bargnani for not being able to fill Bosh's shoes, and start grabbing boards and play better defence. This is just to say that Bosh was a good player, not LeBron good, but good. And now, with our record what it is, there can be no denying this.

And this is not aimed at the people who liked to debate whether Bosh was a superstar or not, and whether a championship team can be built with him as a centrepiece. This is why maybe this post is a bit of a red herring, because it is hard to know how many people belong to a group when a few of them are so vocal. But for those who maintain that he sucks, that he is weak, that he does not in any way make his team better, I simply need to point to the Raptor's current record.

[chrischris]

Any team is worse off when you lose a 20 PPG player. With Bosh, we couldn't get any better than a first round playoff losing team. That was Bosh's ceiling on THIS team. In that respect, Bosh was in fact holding us back. It may take 3 or 4 years to get deep into the playoffs now...but if we had re-signed Bosh, we'd be the same first round exiting team for the next 6 years. Boshless is much better in the long run

[Tim W.]

I agree with chrischris. I was shocked by those who said the Raptors would have a better record than last year. It made zero sense to me. And while I was sorry to see Bosh go, he was keeping the Raptors mediocre, which allowed them to vie for the playoffs, but not do any damage there. If the Raptors would have been able to draft another great player, which would have relegated Bosh to #2 on the totem, then the future would have been much brighter. But with Bosh, the team was stuck in mediocre-ville. Not good enough to contend, but not bad enough to draft a superstar.

[verbatim]

like I said, this may be a red herring of a thread, or maybe chrischris and Tim W. just represent simply the more reasonable part of the community that realized that Bosh was a good player, but not someone who could carry a team to a championship. I was under the impression that there was quite a vocal group on this site that thought this was going to be a new and improved team sans Bosh, or at the very least that Bosh was preventing the rest of the team from living up to their potential. That ought to be shown by now to be a garbage theory.

Having said all this, it was on Bryan Colangelo to build a team with Bosh on its roster. He had years to do so, and years of failure (for whatever reason within or outside his control). Having Bosh on the roster does not equal having a mediocre team. Think of it this way: Colangelo, in all of his years, managed to put together Chris Bosh and a supporting cast capable of 13 wins 48 games into the season. Unacceptable.

[Mal]

Bosh obviously does not suck but was thought of too highly by not just the Raptor's organization, but by most of the league. He was the biggest ball/play stopper the last couple years. He wasn't really hurting his teammate's potentials, but he certainly wasn't helping them grow. With him gone they'll definitely get better in the future cuz they need to learn how to score in different ways.

[Tim W.]

I don't think there were a lot of people that thought the Raptors would be better off without Bosh. I think the ones that did were simply very vocal about it in response to such an overwhelming percentage of people who felt the Raptors were a bottom 10-5 team.

[DirtyMikeSeaver]

One question: Isn't it the GM's fault not to pair Bosh with another superstar? 5 or 6 yrs ago, you could probably get away with a team with Bosh as the centerpiece, but now, the league is REALLY deep and you need 2 (even 3) 'superstars' to compete. I just find it hard to sit there and say Bosh "held this team back" when even Kobe Bryant needed Pau Gasol.

[Tim W.]

One question: Isn't it the GM's fault not to pair Bosh with another superstar? 5 or 6 yrs ago, you could probably get away with a team with Bosh as the centerpiece, but now, the league is REALLY deep and you need 2 (even 3) 'superstars' to compete. I just find it hard to sit there and say Bosh "held this team back" when even Kobe Bryant needed Pau Gasol.

A couple of things wrong with that argument. The first is that 5 or 6 years ago, Rob Babcock was the GM, who is pretty much the consensus worst Raptor GM ever. More importantly, though, knowing what you need to do and being able to do it are two vastly different things. Obviously Bosh needed much better talent around him but how do you acquire it? Attracting a top tier player has obviously been extremely difficult. And the Raptors would have to give up something in order to get something. You have to realize that the Lakers basically stole Pau Gasol away from Memphis. Deals like that are EXTREMELY rare. Even when Boston got Garnett, they still had to give up expiring contracts as well as a guy who many considered to be a future perennial All-Star, at least, in Al Jefferson.

[verbatim]

Bosh obviously does not suck but was thought of too highly by not just the Raptor's organization, but by most of the league. He was the biggest ball/play stopper the last couple years. He wasn't really hurting his teammate's potentials, but he certainly wasn't helping them grow. With him gone they'll definitely get better in the future cuz they need to learn how to score in different ways.

Looking back, that probably isn't true. It is on the coach to provide the offensive schemes - and it isn't like offence was our issue on most nights. The Heat run a lot of their half-court offence through Bosh, and without him there is a lot of stagnation. That is what the coach is for, and I can't pin even 50% of the blame on Bosh that players would stand around when he had the ball in the high post.

[verbatim]

One question: Isn't it the GM's fault not to pair Bosh with another superstar? 5 or 6 yrs ago, you could probably get away with a team with Bosh as the centerpiece, but now, the league is REALLY deep and you need 2 (even 3) 'superstars' to compete. I just find it hard to sit there and say Bosh "held this team back" when even Kobe Bryant needed Pau Gasol.

You always would have needed more than Bosh to compete in this league. At one point LeBron could have one a championship on his own, and he nearly did. My point about the team that BC built (for whatever reasons, good or bad), is that it turned out to be Bosh plus a team that can only win 13 games in 48 games, plus Hedo.

BC had to have been able to do a better job with Bosh on the team, given that he is a really good player - it hardly seems fair to say that BC exhausted the possibilities of building a team with Bosh as a star PF, given that the fruit of his labour is the team we have now.

[Apollo]

Everyone who thought that the team (and Bargnani in particular) was being held back by Bosh, should have ample opportunity to see that we were much better with him than without him.

This is not post to harp on Bargnani for not being able to fill Bosh's shoes, and start grabbing boards and play better defence. This is just to say that Bosh was a good player, not LeBron good, but good. And now, with our record what it is, there can be no denying this.

And this is not aimed at the people who liked to debate whether Bosh was a superstar or not, and whether a championship team can be built with him as a centrepiece. This is why maybe this post is a bit of a red herring, because it is hard to know how many people belong to a group when a few of them are so vocal. But for those who maintain that he sucks, that he is weak, that he does not in any way make his team better, I simply need to point to the Raptor's current record.

It's not fair to expect Bargnani to carry his own load and what Bosh carried as well. You keep Bosh and lose Bargnani and the team is still struggling right now...

[footie]

Everyone who thought that the team (and Bargnani in particular) was being held back by Bosh, should have ample opportunity to see that we were much better with him than without him.

This is not post to harp on Bargnani for not being able to fill Bosh's shoes, and start grabbing boards and play better defence. This is just to say that Bosh was a good player, not LeBron good, but good. And now, with our record what it is, there can be no denying this.

And this is not aimed at the people who liked to debate whether Bosh was a superstar or not, and whether a championship team can be built with him as a centrepiece. This is why maybe this post is a bit of a red herring, because it is hard to know how many people belong to a group when a few of them are so vocal. But for those who maintain that he sucks, that he is weak, that he does not in any way make his team better, I simply need to point to the Raptor's current record.

I don't get it Bosh had Bargnani Hedo ...Bargnani has ....? How can you compare this team with the still bad teams of the last years???
without talking about all the injuries and a different line-up every week???
the real team was the one we saw before Evans injurie after has been just a crazy train wreck !
And thinking about what we saw this summer it's not what JT and BC had in mind either by the way thanks MJ !

[Pele]

Bosh reminded me of Mats Sundin. Mats was a very good player who would have been a great piece on a good team. However, he was not good enough to be the franchise player. The leafs bungled the whole Sundin episode. They got nothing for him but years of losing when a trade for a few good picks would of made the difference.

Bargnani reminds me of Kaberle. (skilled but soft; not a winner) The leafs should have traded Kaberle for some picks and young studs a long time ago. Today would have been different.

Instead they traded their good picks for Kessel. BTW, I certainly hope Demar doesn't turn into a disappointment like Kessel.

I've given up totally on the Leafs. I used to bleed blue and white and now have absolutely no interest. The Raps basically have 3 years to put a perennially competitive team on the court or screw them.

[MangoKid]

Everyone who thought that the team (and Bargnani in particular) was being held back by Bosh, should have ample opportunity to see that we were much better with him than without him.

This is not post to harp on Bargnani for not being able to fill Bosh's shoes, and start grabbing boards and play better defence. This is just to say that Bosh was a good player, not LeBron good, but good. And now, with our record what it is, there can be no denying this.

And this is not aimed at the people who liked to debate whether Bosh was a superstar or not, and whether a championship team can be built with him as a centrepiece. This is why maybe this post is a bit of a red herring, because it is hard to know how many people belong to a group when a few of them are so vocal. But for those who maintain that he sucks, that he is weak, that he does not in any way make his team better, I simply need to point to the Raptor's current record.

Just want to point out that this team could hardly make the playoffs WITH Bosh. In his 7 seasons, we made it twice. ANd won a grand total of 3 games. For 17 million +, he was definitely holding us back. If you're gonna pay someone that much, you'd expect that person to carry that team on his back at least lead you past the first round.

[MangoKid]

Bosh reminded me of Mats Sundin. Mats was a very good player who would have been a great piece on a good team. However, he was not good enough to be the franchise player. The leafs bungled the whole Sundin episode. They got nothing for him but years of losing when a trade for a few good picks would of made the difference.

Bargnani reminds me of Kaberle. (skilled but soft; not a winner) The leafs should have traded Kaberle for some picks and young studs a long time ago. Today would have been different.

Instead they traded their good picks for Kessel. BTW, I certainly hope Demar doesn't turn into a disappointment like Kessel.

I've given up totally on the Leafs. I used to bleed blue and white and now have absolutely no interest. The Raps basically have 3 years to put a perennially competitive team on the court or screw them.

Sundin is a HOF player. He's in a class much higher than Bosh. For years, Sundin was THAT guy. He lead his team on a couple of occasions to the brink of a Stanley Cup finals berth.

As for Kaberle = Bargnani, I can see where you're coming from on the comparison. Both shy away from physical contact, both put up lots of points, however Kaberle is a much better defender than people give him credit for. And Leafs managment have tried to trade him on several occasions only for Kabs to evoke his no-trade clause ( he should have been traded to Philly 3 seasons ago for Jeff Carter and a 1st, but he nixed the deal)