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  • 25 And Under Ceiling

    What do you think the ceiling is for all the Raptors' players 25 years of age and younger?

    Andrea Bargnani, age 25
    Sonny Weems, age 24
    Amir Johnson, age 23
    Julian Wright, age 23
    Jerryd Bayless, age 22
    Solomon Alabi, age 22
    Alexis Ajinca, age 22
    DeMar DeRozan, age 21
    Ed Davis, age 21

  • #2
    Not sure how one would quantify 'ceiling' to be honest.

    Are we doing it out of 100, where 100 is Lebron-type-Ceiling, and 0 being Hoffa type?

    I'd say Demar is the only one with a truly unlimited ceiling.

    Comment


    • #3
      What I'm thinking

      Superstar, perennial all-star, all-star, team star, impact player, solid rotation player, end of bench player.

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      • #4
        demar and ed - all-star

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        • #5
          Solomon Alabi and Alexis Ajinca are...?

          Tough one to answer, huh?

          Comment


          • #6
            Apollo wrote: View Post
            What do you think the ceiling is for all the Raptors' players 25 years of age and younger?

            Andrea Bargnani, age 25 impact player
            Sonny Weems, age 24 solid rotational
            Amir Johnson, age 23 impact player
            Julian Wright, age 23 end of bench
            Jerryd Bayless, age 22 solid rotational player
            Solomon Alabi, age 22 end of bench
            Alexis Ajinca, age 22 end of bench
            DeMar DeRozan, age 21 perennial all-star
            Ed Davis, age 21perennial all-star
            I am trying to be realistic. If the Raps ever have a great season and Bargnani is around he could be considered an all-star but he is approaching the top floor I think. Bayless has averaged 14/7 when given the start, he is who I feel least confident about labelling right now. Weems is almost at end of bench for my ranking, he just slipped in to solid rotational player.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'll preface my picks by stating that I will not be labeling any of the above-mentioned players as "perennial all-stars" based on the system of fan voting and the fact that Toronto is off the radar for many NBA fans/players/coaches/media types. Maybe a couple of these guys will have all-star calibre seasons, but that does not mean that they will make the all star team. Every year very deserving players get left off the team. That being said;
              Bargs-impact offensive player
              Weems-Bench/not-so-solid rotational player
              Johnson-impact player
              Wright-solid rotational player
              Bayless-solid rotational player
              Alabi-DNP-CD
              Ajinca-End of bench
              DeRozan-all star calibre player
              Davis-impact player/all star calibre player

              Comment


              • #8
                duncan wrote: View Post
                I'll preface my picks by stating that I will not be labeling any of the above-mentioned players as "perennial all-stars" based on the system of fan voting and the fact that Toronto is off the radar for many NBA fans/players/coaches/media types.
                Vince Carter had no trouble getting fan votes but I agree for the most part about being off the radar of most fans. However, the starters are only decided by the fans. The coaches know what's what. They scout and research all season long in preparation for games. The coaches usually make fair selections. If either is worthy the coaches will see that they get there more times than not. The coaches got Bosh there multiple times. They also got Antonio Davis to the game while he was in Toronto.

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                • #9
                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  Vince Carter had no trouble getting fan votes but I agree for the most part about being off the radar of most fans. However, the starters are only decided by the fans. The coaches know what's what. They scout and research all season long in preparation for games. The coaches usually make fair selections. If either is worthy the coaches will see that they get there more times than not. The coaches got Bosh there multiple times. They also got Antonio Davis to the game while he was in Toronto.
                  Apollo, we're splitting hairs here. The only reason I went out of my way to preface my comment was the term "perennial all-stars". I wasn't doubting that these guys could make an AS game or 2, but that is a far cry from "perennial". Now, as to your response, Vince was the darling of the league back then, much as Blake is right now (and that's where the comparison for those 2 stops).
                  Bosh did get in 3 times, but I think one of those was an injury replacement, and the other 2; he was putting up big #'s on a middle-of-the-pack team with no other star player.
                  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Antonio Davis was an injury replacement as well.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Depends where the team is going in the next few years, but at the moment this is what it looks like:

                    Bargs- offensive rotational player (not even a starter on a good team due to his non-existing defense)
                    Weems-Bench/ rotational player
                    Johnson-solid rotational player
                    Wright-bench/defensive rotational player
                    Bayless- bench/rotational player
                    Alabi-not on any NBA roster
                    Ajinca-not on any NBA roster
                    DeRozan-all star calibre player (depends on his effort and work ethics, the ingredients are there)
                    Davis-all star calibre player (it will be more difficult for him to get to the all-star because he's not as flashy as DeRozan)

                    Just to mention, I do not measure the quality of the player by the number of his All-star appearances, the only thing that matters in my book are the number of Championships won (or at least playoff series wins).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      duncan wrote: View Post
                      Apollo, we're splitting hairs here. The only reason I went out of my way to preface my comment was the term "perennial all-stars". I wasn't doubting that these guys could make an AS game or 2, but that is a far cry from "perennial". Now, as to your response, Vince was the darling of the league back then, much as Blake is right now (and that's where the comparison for those 2 stops).
                      Bosh did get in 3 times, but I think one of those was an injury replacement, and the other 2; he was putting up big #'s on a middle-of-the-pack team with no other star player.
                      Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Antonio Davis was an injury replacement as well.
                      Bosh replaced KG in the starting lineup on season but I'm not sure if he made his first due to somebody else not being able to play.

                      Who did Davis replace? I don't remember it going down that way but it was a loooong time ago.

                      Either way, my point is, if they're good enough they'll get in every year.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If I recall correctly, Antonio Davis was not only an injury replacement but more like an injury replacement replacement. Someone got hurt, and then the replacement also got hurt, and Davis got in.

                        Here's the breakdown of votes for 2001 centers:

                        Alonzo Mourning (916,866) - injured
                        Theo Ratliff (637,585) - injured
                        Dikembe Mutombo (627,148) - reserve
                        Jermaine O'Neal (524,506)
                        Zydrunas Ilgauskas (288,183)
                        Antonio Davis (220,917) - starter!
                        Earvin Johnson (220,344)
                        Elden Campbell (200,996)
                        Ben Wallace (194,472)
                        John Amaechi (182,111)

                        I don't know about all-star because all-star is all about popularity and I couldn't care less about how popular our players become. I think as Raptors fans we should be looking for impact and building towards a team that will contend, not for the playoffs but for a championship. It's a more critical way of looking at things but it also gives you a little perspective.

                        It's fun to look at where you think DeRozan might be in 2-3 years, and yea he might be great, but if the Raptors are still barely a 0.500 team, who gives a shit if DeRozan or Davis makes the all-star game? I'd rather look at where would he stand on a team that contends for a championship. That is, if you put DeRozan, or Weems, or Bargnani on a team that people talk about as a team that could potentially make a deep run in the playoffs, where would that player rank. Here's my list:

                        Andrea Bargnani, solid rotation player
                        Sonny Weems, end of bench player
                        Amir Johnson, solid rotation player
                        Julian Wright, end of bench player
                        Jerryd Bayless, end of bench player
                        Solomon Alabi, not on team
                        Alexis Ajinca, not on team
                        DeMar DeRozan, impact player
                        Ed Davis, impact player
                        Last edited by ebrian; Fri Feb 11, 2011, 11:48 AM.
                        your pal,
                        ebrian

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                        • #13
                          Wow, people are pretty high on Davis here.

                          Davis has shown a very, very limited offensive game. Only put-backs or if he gets the ball in immediate range of the basket, which is rare, b/c he struggles to get deep post position. Granted, his number isn't called on offense very much, but there is a reason for that (i.e. he has no offense).

                          So people saying solid rebounder but very limited offensive player becoming a perennial all-star is very, very (see: ridiculously) optimistic. Ed has to put in a TON of work on his offensive game, and he needs to do some serious strengthening to augment his offense AND defensive game. Yes, he blocks shots, but these come in help/rotational situations. One-on-one he really gets pushed around.

                          Way to early to be saying he is going to be an all-star, but he definitely will be a solid rotational player.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            duncan wrote: View Post
                            Apollo, we're splitting hairs here. The only reason I went out of my way to preface my comment was the term "perennial all-stars". I wasn't doubting that these guys could make an AS game or 2, but that is a far cry from "perennial". Now, as to your response, Vince was the darling of the league back then, much as Blake is right now (and that's where the comparison for those 2 stops).
                            Bosh did get in 3 times, but I think one of those was an injury replacement, and the other 2; he was putting up big #'s on a middle-of-the-pack team with no other star player.
                            Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Antonio Davis was an injury replacement as well.
                            Have there been any Toronto players that could have been All-Stars that weren't? It doesn't sound like you wanted to get into this conversation, but it seems to me like you're complaining about something that simply doesn't exist.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

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                            • #15
                              JayElZee wrote: View Post
                              Wow, people are pretty high on Davis here.

                              Davis has shown a very, very limited offensive game. Only put-backs or if he gets the ball in immediate range of the basket, which is rare, b/c he struggles to get deep post position. Granted, his number isn't called on offense very much, but there is a reason for that (i.e. he has no offense).

                              So people saying solid rebounder but very limited offensive player becoming a perennial all-star is very, very (see: ridiculously) optimistic. Ed has to put in a TON of work on his offensive game, and he needs to do some serious strengthening to augment his offense AND defensive game. Yes, he blocks shots, but these come in help/rotational situations. One-on-one he really gets pushed around.

                              Way to early to be saying he is going to be an all-star, but he definitely will be a solid rotational player.
                              The weaknesses in Davis' game are very easily rectified. He's naturally going to gain weight and strength as he gets older. This is a common problem for players in their first few years.

                              As for his offense, he's shown to have soft hands, good instincts and a high IQ. He'll probably never be a 25 ppg scorer, but I could easily see him averaging 15-18 ppg in a few years. Al Horford made his second All-Star game in a row and he's never averaged 17 ppg. Joakim Noah is an offensively limited player who would have been a shoe in for the All-Star team if he weren't injured.

                              Basically, what I, and many others, have seen is a player who has a very high basketball IQ and simply knows how to play. Those are rarer than you think.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                              Follow me on Twitter.

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