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  • LBF wrote: View Post
    it was his first season at first and he got banged up because it was his first season. Johnson hit .270 for us and he's got some pop to his bat. he also isn't a below average fielder.

    he played his best season of career in 2010 with zona and he hit 21 dingers last year. he's going to be hitting like 6th or 5th and if he hits around 270 with 20 something dingers as well as his above average fielding pretty good second basemen and 6 or 5 hole guy.

    lind is right now a poor man's ryan howard and at his peak probably will be as good as ryan howard.which is basically a good pull fastball hitter.

    I agree we could benefit from trading him.but, if rasmus improves and with lawrie no doubt a future superstar and seeing what arencibia can become as well as thames. If we get gio and some arms in the bullpen right now. I think not this year but next is the year.

    i mean snider is a definite trade chip along with gose or rasmus and or young minor league arms.we just have to move those prospects before their value possibly diminishes.

    i'm looking to pull off a trade with oakland and san diego and possibly tampa 'cause that's where the arms are.
    I never said that Johnson is a poor fielder. If anything, he's average - he's never been known for his glove. I'd rather have a guy who hits like 10 home runs and plays spectacular D. He can possibly hit you 15-20 home runs, but he strikes out a ton and isn't patient (much like Lind). He doesn't strike me much as an AA guy because of his poor patience at the plate, but he's willing to take the 6.5 mil this season then I guess it's not all bad, but he definitely doesn't fit in long term. It will probably be his last season in Toronto.

    As for Lind, there's no way you can put him and Ryan Howard in the same breath. Howard is a perennial MVP candidate. You can pen him in for 30 hr's and 100 rbi's every season. He's a game changer. If Lind mashed the way Howard does, I'd overlook his poor fielding (he was a poor fielder in the OF as well).

    There's no way I trade Rasmus at the moment. If someone had told me last off-season that I could get Rasmus for 3 relievers and Zach Stewart, I would have laughed. The kid has talent.

    Thames is a 4-th OF at best. Just warming the spot till Gose or Marsinick reaches the Big Leagues.

    I'd look into trading Snider. Not in division though. Maybe San Diego's way (as part of a package) for either Alonso or Rizzo.

    Comment


    • As for Lind, there's no way you can put him and Ryan Howard in the same breath. Howard is a perennial MVP candidate. You can pen him in for 30 hr's and 100 rbi's every season. He's a game changer. If Lind mashed the way Howard does, I'd overlook his poor fielding (he was a poor fielder in the OF as well).
      I don't get how you can bash Darvish's potentially anemic contract and yet support Howard's. Any Philly fan will tell you he's not worth that cash.

      Remember, RBIs are dependent on the players that hit ahead of him, and I'd say Philly's top of the order is better than 80% of the league.

      MangoKid wrote: View Post
      Johnson didn't play that well in Arizona, hence why he was shipped out. Believe me, AA was hoping that he'd walk so they Jays could get the compensatory picks. I can't see Johnson sticking around after this season. Lind's numbers are not that good for a first baseman in the AL. His OBP is low, he doesn't walk a lot, and he's an average to below average first baseman.

      7 pitches? Jeez.
      He is an above average fielder though. This is noteworthy considering that he only really started playing there recently.
      Last edited by Prime; Tue Dec 20, 2011, 06:12 PM.

      Comment


      • Prime wrote: View Post
        I don't get how you can bash Darvish's potentially anemic contract and yet support Howard's. Any Philly fan will tell you he's not worth that cash.
        I'm not sure if you're being facetious, but I'll play it at face value. If the Darvish gets a 75 million dollar contract (for 5 years - and that's the lowest threshold Darvish would take), the Rangers on average, will have given Darvish the same contract Howard has (5/125). Howard is one of the most feared hitters in the game. He's a former MVP - both of regular season and World Series (has been in the top-10 in MVP voting in each year since he's been in the league, except his rookie year when he won the NL rookie of the year award), a 3-time all star, 2-time former home run king, 3-time rbi champ. The point is, he's productive. In regards to fans complaining about contracts, Most baseball fans will complain about contracts. Then again, baseball player is really worth their contract.
        In contrast, what has Davish done to deserve HIS contract?


        Prime wrote: View Post
        Remember, RBIs are dependent on the players that hit ahead of him, and I'd say Philly's top of the order is better than 80% of the league.
        It's one thing to have players who hit in front of you to get on base, it's another to be able to drive them in. 100 rbi's each year isn't a fluke.


        Prime wrote: View Post
        He is an above average fielder though. This is noteworthy considering that he only really started playing there recently.
        I wouldn't go as far as to say Lind is above average at 1st. At best, he's average.

        Comment


        • MangoKid wrote: View Post
          I wouldn't go as far as to say Lind is above average at 1st. At best, he's average.
          I'm with Mango on this one.

          I like Lind alot, but he would be the first spot I look to upgrade. (Besides Bullpen.)

          Comment


          • howard was completely assanine in the post-season. he fell off worse than cliff lee. you throw that man a curve ball and he strikes out 90% of the time.

            Incredible power when he connects.So, was adum dunn. move howard to the AL and he'll have as shitty a season as dunn, well not as shitty because that's impossible, but, he'll have a bad season.

            ryan howard is a poor man's prince fielder. As for the reason why Howard gets all those dingers and 100 rbi's is due to the guys in front of him as was touched on. Sure it's one thing to be able to drive them in.

            But, Howard approaches the plate and swings the bat the exact same way with the bases loaded than with nobody on and 2 out. I'm not going to suggest pitchers approach him the same way with the bases loaded. But, the secret behind Howard driving in all those runs is because teams don't play the regular shift they would if nobody was on and he was at the plate.

            he's basically jim thome and as he gets older and his contact diminishes, those power numbers will go down just like thome. You can't play the shift with the bases loaded, a pitcher throws a hittable pitch and howard hits it.

            Howard always goes up there with the home run swing, he's never thinking about anything other than swinging his hardest.
            If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

            Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

            Comment


            • I like thames and I want to see a full year out of him before i make any complete asesments. but, as of now i don't think he's a 4th outfielder at best. he's got some definite power and the way he started to play in the field at the end of the year impressed me.
              If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

              Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

              Comment


              • LBF wrote: View Post
                howard was completely assanine in the post-season. he fell off worse than cliff lee. you throw that man a curve ball and he strikes out 90% of the time.
                A lot of the Phillies fell off this post-season. However, his post season numbers are in 170 ABs, .260 avg, .360 obp, 8 hrs, 33 rbi's. Extrapolate those numbers over a year's worth and it's a tad below what he hits in the regular season. The guy owns a World Series MVP. So, he has shown that he can perform in the post-season.


                LBF wrote: View Post
                Incredible power when he connects.So, was adum dunn. move howard to the AL and he'll have as shitty a season as dunn, well not as shitty because that's impossible, but, he'll have a bad season.
                I beg to differ. Howard's numbers are much better than Dunn's. How many times has Dunn finished as a top-10 MVP candidate in the NL? His best showing was top-21. Granted, he played on some bad Reds teams, but if he was on the level of Howard, his numbers would be better. The pitching in the NL is just as good as the pitching in the AL. I don't see Howard's numbers would swan dive because of a switch of leagues.

                LBF wrote: View Post
                ryan howard is a poor man's prince fielder. As for the reason why Howard gets all those dingers and 100 rbi's is due to the guys in front of him as was touched on. Sure it's one thing to be able to drive them in.
                How is Ryan Howard a poor man's Prince Fielder when he earns more than him? If Howard wasn't the player he was, he wouldn't drive the runs he does. Give credit where it's due.



                LBF wrote: View Post
                he's basically jim thome and as he gets older and his contact diminishes, those power numbers will go down just like thome. You can't play the shift with the bases loaded, a pitcher throws a hittable pitch and howard hits it.
                If Howard is Jim Thome, he should be happy. Thome is a Hall of Famer. Thome for his career was a pull hitter, just like how Howard is. And he was successful.

                LBF wrote: View Post
                Howard always goes up there with the home run swing, he's never thinking about anything other than swinging his hardest.
                Why wouldn't you go up there and swing your hardest? Or at least be selective? Why swing at a ball if you're not gonna swing your hardest? The Phillies pay him to be a game changer and a masher at the plate, not to be like Ichiro and beat out infield grounders.

                Comment


                • LBF wrote: View Post
                  I like thames and I want to see a full year out of him before i make any complete asesments. but, as of now i don't think he's a 4th outfielder at best. he's got some definite power and the way he started to play in the field at the end of the year impressed me.
                  Thames has some pop in his bat and a bit of speed, but he's not as toolsy as Rasmus and he's definitely not in Bautista's league. Let's see how Thames adjusts to his second go-around, but he's someone who the Jays could part with easily if they got a decent deal that would shore up their bullpen. He can ht right handed pitching, but he struggles mightily against lefties. The Jays have 2 guys coming up who project to be much better than Thames in Gose and Marsinick. Thames really isn't the long term solution in the OF. I'd trust Snider more than Thames, and I do hope Snider puts it all together.

                  Comment


                  • MangoKid wrote: View Post
                    I beg to differ. Howard's numbers are much better than Dunn's. How many times has Dunn finished as a top-10 MVP candidate in the NL? His best showing was top-21. Granted, he played on some bad Reds teams, but if he was on the level of Howard, his numbers would be better.
                    How many bandwagoners are in the BBWA?

                    The point is, MVP votes are highly subjective and shouldn't be used as a standard to compare players with. We've already seen it this year with Justin Verlander and the Michael Young vote.

                    Why wouldn't you go up there and swing your hardest? Or at least be selective? Why swing at a ball if you're not gonna swing your hardest? The Phillies pay him to be a game changer and a masher at the plate, not to be like Ichiro and beat out infield grounders.
                    I'm sure that if you ask any Philly fan to decide between Howard and Ichiro, the majority will respond "Ichiro".

                    If you ever frequent a baseball forum (or even a Philadelphia newspaper site) you would find a lot of Phillies fans who dislike his albatross contract.

                    Game changer? Ichiro was way more of a game changer, and he also played on a substantially worse team. Howard's career WAR is 2.89 and he's never averaged above 5.8 (his MVP year).
                    Compare that with Ichiro, whose career WAR is 5.13--nearly double Howard's. Also of note is that his WAR has never dipped under 3 in ten consecutive seasons while Howard had under 3 for seven of the eight seasons he's been in the majors.
                    Last edited by Prime; Wed Dec 21, 2011, 04:08 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Prime wrote: View Post
                      How many bandwagoners are in the BBWA?

                      The point is, MVP votes are highly subjective and shouldn't be used as a standard to compare players with. We've already seen it this year with Justin Verlander and the Michael Young vote.

                      I'm sure that if you ask any Philly fan to decide between Howard and Ichiro, the majority will respond "Ichiro".

                      If you ever frequent a baseball forum (or even a Philadelphia newspaper site) you would find a lot of Phillies fans who dislike his albatross contract.

                      Game changer? Ichiro was way more of a game changer, and he also played on a substantially worse team. Howard's career WAR is 2.89 and he's never averaged above 5.8 (his MVP year).
                      Compare that with Ichiro, whose career WAR is 5.13--nearly double Howard's. Also of note is that his WAR has never dipped under 3 in ten consecutive seasons while Howard had under 3 for seven of the eight seasons he's been in the majors.
                      Are we REALLY comparing Ichiro to Howard now? Ichiro is a sure-fire HOF player. My comments on Ichiro were based on his strengths. The Mariners expect the guy to hit .300 plus, swipe 40 bases and deliver gold glove defense. They don't pay the guy to mash balls over the wall. That's not his strength. I'm sure every team in the MLB would take Ichiro over their best player, so why all of a sudden are you turning this a "who's a better player - Ichiro or Ryan Howard" debate? That's not the issue at hand.
                      Whether you like it or not, Ryan Howard IS a game changer. He's a threat to go deep in every at bat and is one of the most feared hitters in the league.

                      As for the contract of his and the fans' displeasure, of course there is going to be displeasure surrounding it. They're Phillies fans, after all. The same Philadelphia fans that boo'ed Santa Claus. They expect Howard to hit 50+ home runs every year. Anything less than that is a failure. Like I said in a previous post, I don't believe any player is worth their contract. Every player in MLB is overpaid. But then again, you'd take Darvish and his peanut contract of 125 over 5 over Howard and his 125 over 5.

                      I also believe that Howard is a perennial MVP candidate. If your argument against him being such is :

                      Prime wrote: View Post
                      MVP votes are highly subjective and shouldn't be used as a standard to compare players with. We've already seen it this year with Justin Verlander and the Michael Young vote.
                      So Verlander didn't deserve to be MVP this year after the season he had? He had a season for the ages. Couple that with there was no real strong American League batting candidate, and there you have it. What most writers did was they looked at where the Tigers would be without Verlander. That's what made him a top candidate. That's what makes Howard place in the top-10 in MVP voting year in and out. The guys produces. I don't see why you discount it.

                      Comment


                      • MangoKid wrote: View Post
                        Are we REALLY comparing Ichiro to Howard now? Ichiro is a sure-fire HOF player. My comments on Ichiro were based on his strengths. The Mariners expect the guy to hit .300 plus, swipe 40 bases and deliver gold glove defense. They don't pay the guy to mash balls over the wall. That's not his strength. I'm sure every team in the MLB would take Ichiro over their best player, so why all of a sudden are you turning this a "who's a better player - Ichiro or Ryan Howard" debate? That's not the issue at hand.
                        1. You brought up the comparison. I was just elaborating further.
                        2. In your previous post you suggested that Ichiro was less of a game changer than Howard. That's simply not true, like I said.

                        Whether you like it or not, Ryan Howard IS a game changer. He's a threat to go deep in every at bat and is one of the most feared hitters in the league.
                        Everyone is a game changer then, by your skewed definition.

                        e.g.
                        "Whether you like it or not, John Danks IS a game changer. He's a threat to strikeout every batter and is one of the least feared pitchers in the league."

                        We can play this game all day.


                        As for the contract of his and the fans' displeasure, of course there is going to be displeasure surrounding it. They're Phillies fans, after all. The same Philadelphia fans that boo'ed Santa Claus. They expect Howard to hit 50+ home runs every year. Anything less than that is a failure. Like I said in a previous post, I don't believe any player is worth their contract. Every player in MLB is overpaid. But then again, you'd take Darvish and his peanut contract of 125 over 5 over Howard and his 125 over 5.

                        I also believe that Howard is a perennial MVP candidate. If your argument against him being such is :



                        So Verlander didn't deserve to be MVP this year after the season he had? He had a season for the ages.
                        So did Clayton Kershaw, but I don't see him winning the MVP.

                        Also take a look at Zack Greinke in 2009: had the highest WAR in the MLB, struck out more batters in 9 innings than Verlander this year, walked less batters, had a lower ERA, and gave up less runs.

                        Yet he still lost to Mauer.

                        Couple that with there was no real strong American League batting candidate, and there you have it. What most writers did was they looked at where the Tigers would be without Verlander. That's what made him a top candidate. That's what makes Howard place in the top-10 in MVP voting year in and out. The guys produces. I don't see why you discount it.
                        No real strong AL batting candidate? Please.

                        The 2008 AL MVP, Dustin Pedroia, hit .326/17/83 with a WAR of 5.2 on a stacked team.

                        Last season we had:
                        • Miquel Cabrera: .344/30/105, WAR: 7.1
                        • Bautista: .302/43/103 with 132 walks (12 of which came from Verlander himself), WAR: 9.1
                        • Jacoby Ellsbury: .321/32/105 with 39 steals, WAR: 6.6
                        • Pedroia again: .307/21/91 with 26 steals, WAR: 6.8

                        Comment


                        • Prime wrote: View Post
                          1. You brought up the comparison. I was just elaborating further.
                          2. In your previous post you suggested that Ichiro was less of a game changer than Howard. That's simply not true, like I said.
                          The comparison I brought up was in regards to strengths of players, not who's more or less of a game changer. That was never my suggestion. That might have been lost. I might have not worded it properly. The point of contention is that the Phillies pay Howard to hit homeruns and drive in runs, because that's his strength. You pay people based on their strengths, not weaknesses. I don't think the Phillies pay Howard to because he's got speed to burn or that he's got great plate discipline like Ichiro. If I didn't make it clear in previous posts, my apologies. I'm making it clear now.


                          Prime wrote: View Post
                          Everyone is a game changer then, by your skewed definition.

                          e.g.
                          "Whether you like it or not, John Danks IS a game changer. He's a threat to strikeout every batter and is one of the least feared pitchers in the league."

                          We can play this game all day.
                          If you wanna play that game, you go right ahead and do that, friend. You know exactly what I meant by my comments, and you know what Howard can do, as opposed to a lot of other players in the league. You want to make some thinly veiled jabs, go ahead.


                          Prime wrote: View Post
                          So did Clayton Kershaw, but I don't see him winning the MVP.

                          Also take a look at Zack Greinke in 2009: had the highest WAR in the MLB, struck out more batters in 9 innings than Verlander this year, walked less batters, had a lower ERA, and gave up less runs.

                          Yet he still lost to Mauer.


                          No real strong AL batting candidate? Please.

                          The 2008 AL MVP, Dustin Pedroia, hit .326/17/83 with a WAR of 5.2 on a stacked team.

                          Last season we had:
                          • Miquel Cabrera: .344/30/105, WAR: 7.1
                          • Bautista: .302/43/103 with 132 walks (12 of which came from Verlander himself), WAR: 9.1
                          • Jacoby Ellsbury: .321/32/105 with 39 steals, WAR: 6.6
                          • Pedroia again: .307/21/91 with 26 steals, WAR: 6.8
                          Did Kershaw have a great season? Absolutely. He was rewarded with the Cy Young award. He did garner some MVP votes as well. But really, the Dodgers were not a playoff team, far from it. Take Braun off the Brewers and I don't think Milwaukee gets as far as they do. Who was more valuable to the Tigers in the season they just had - Verlander or Miggy? Bautista had another great season, but Toronto wasn't close to securing a playoff spot.
                          The numbers that the candidates that you listed had great seasons, but take Verlander off that Tigers team and there's no way the Tigers would have gone as far as they did.
                          Grienke in 2009 - he was on a poor Royals team. Hence why he didn't garner as much MVP votes. But you take Mauer off of that Twins team and they don't make it to the playoffs.
                          Last edited by MangoKid; Wed Dec 21, 2011, 04:26 PM.

                          Comment


                          • LBF wrote: View Post
                            I like thames and I want to see a full year out of him before i make any complete asesments. but, as of now i don't think he's a 4th outfielder at best. he's got some definite power and the way he started to play in the field at the end of the year impressed me.
                            Tell me which is Thames and which is Snider (keep in mind, Thames is 25 and Snider is 23):

                            MLB Full Season - Player A: OBP: .313 - OPS: .769 - OPS+: 104 HR: 12 AB: 362

                            MLB Full Season - Player B: OBP: .304 - OPS: .767 - OPS+: 105 HR: 14 AB: 319

                            Also, Thames is a horrendous outfielder. Just awful. He was their worst outfielder defensively last year on a team that included Rajai Davis and Corey Patterson. That's pretty terrible.

                            Comment


                            • MangoKid wrote: View Post
                              Even if the Jays got Darvish, does that fix the hole they have at second base? What about first base? What about DH? What about the bullpen? This team has a lot of issues to address. I mean, you want to be players in the FA market, but you want to make good, smart deals. We JUST got rid of an albatross contract in Wells last January, why are some in such a hurry to add another one?
                              I hate this argument. Yes, the Jays ahve serious issues at 1B, DH, LF and in the rotation and 2B is a question mark. But no one is arguing they have to or even can fill all the holes in on off season. None of this precludes them from filling some of the holes. It's why I think they should be after Fielder. He fills your gaping hole at 1B and if you have Lind/EE as your DH then that likely makes the DH position passable. There, you've addressed two issues. Does it make you a contender? No, but it gets you closer.

                              I'm not suggesting this is your view but this idea many fans have of waiting for some magical time to spend money on FAs is fantasyland. You'll never, ever have a perfect situation where all your prospects and trades deliver at once and there are the ideal FAs out there that year that all want to play for you. It's a fairy tale. You take what you can get when it is available and this off season was as good a time as any fro Toronto to add some pieces.

                              Comment


                              • slaw wrote: View Post
                                I hate this argument. Yes, the Jays ahve serious issues at 1B, DH, LF and in the rotation and 2B is a question mark. But no one is arguing they have to or even can fill all the holes in on off season. None of this precludes them from filling some of the holes. It's why I think they should be after Fielder. He fills your gaping hole at 1B and if you have Lind/EE as your DH then that likely makes the DH position passable. There, you've addressed two issues. Does it make you a contender? No, but it gets you closer.

                                I'm not suggesting this is your view but this idea many fans have of waiting for some magical time to spend money on FAs is fantasyland. You'll never, ever have a perfect situation where all your prospects and trades deliver at once and there are the ideal FAs out there that year that all want to play for you. It's a fairy tale. You take what you can get when it is available and this off season was as good a time as any fro Toronto to add some pieces.
                                There's no way they fill those needs - at least not this winter, and if they do, it'll be by patchwork. Johnson is already in place for this season. I don't believe he'll be back next season. The bullpen needs work. A starter that logs 200+ innings in a must. I don't think Gonzalez is that answer - at least not when Billy Beane is asking for 4 top shelf prospects. I think Anthopolous has some guys in mind, but under the radar guys. I agree with you re: Fielder. They were gonna spend 125+ mil plus on Darvish, so why not spend it on Fielder? He's still young, proven to be durable and him batting back to back with Bautista would be deadly.

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