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  • #31
    Shantz wrote: View Post
    Gotta say, that is a very nice trade! I also think that it might be a little bit too good for the Raptors.

    In total we would save close to $47million over the life of the current contracts (not including draft picks) with this trade.

    Minnesota on the other hand takes on more salary, and all they show for it is a "mentor" for Rubio, and decent SG in Garcia, and the draft rights to Williams. Adding Williams is nice for them, but considering they could just have taken him anyway with the pick they are trading...and they also give up the Memphis pick.

    They are taking on two larger contracts and giving up two picks in the process?

    In the Trade Machine link, you also have Sacramento getting Martel Webster from the Kings, but it is missing from the write-up.

    I love the trade from Toronto's stand point and and like it from Sacramento's as well. Webster, Bayless and Bargnani work work well with the players they already have (Evans, Thornton, Cousins, etc.).

    Minnesota gets a little screwed in the deal...but I still think you are on to something really cool with the basic plan!

    How about these tweaks:

    Would sending Caspi and Johnson to Minnesota instead of Toronto help?
    Toronto could absorb Garcia's contract as well (still saving lots of money on deal)?

    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=445tzmk

    The same picks would be exchange of course. Toronto would walk away with the top two picks (Irving and Kanter), Minnesota would get the third pick (Williams), and Sacramento would get the Memphis pick (whoever they want at that spot). With the changes, Toronto takes on a bit more money then in the original trade in order to justify walking away with the top two picks.

    I don't particularly care who comes back to the Raptors in a deal like this. Adding Thompson would be great as he would add depth to our Front Court. Adding Caspi would give us a nice three point shooter to hold the SF spot until next year's draft, and the rest is just filler. The real money would be walking away with both Irving and Kanter.

    If the Raptors could somehow pull that off...I will not stop smiling for a very long time!
    No, I didn't say much about Webster. (*EDIT* and I just realized what you meant about Webster, I added him). Like Toronto, SAC would be waiting until 2012 draft to get a long term option at the SF. However one thing to remember about Webster is, like Amir, he has been around a long time but is still only 24. He has had injuries but he might get it together yet and in a contract year (team option for 2012-2013) what better time to take the gamble.

    Your change would probably make this a little more realistic. Garcia only has 2 more years left on his contract (3rd year is a team option). With all the youth MIN has, it would come down to would they want to spend the extra money on Garcia or would they rather take on another early 20-something year old. Both cases can be argued, especially considering their low payroll. Much like you, if Toronto was able to walk away with Kanter and Irving, I would not care too much what came back and I would also be smiling for a very long time
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri May 13, 2011, 08:19 PM.

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    • #32
      Matt52 wrote: View Post
      No, I didn't say much about Webster. (*EDIT* and I just realized what you meant about Webster, I added him). Like Toronto, SAC would be waiting until 2012 draft to get a long term option at the SF. However one thing to remember about Webster is, like Amir, he has been around a long time but is still only 24. He has had injuries but he might get it together yet and in a contract year (team option for 2012-2013) what better time to take the gamble.

      Your change would probably make this a little more realistic. Garcia only has 2 more years left on his contract (3rd year is a team option). With all the youth MIN has, it would come down to would they want to spend the extra money on Garcia or would they rather take on another early 20-something year old. Both cases can be argued, especially considering their low payroll. Much like you, if Toronto was able to walk away with Kanter and Irving, I would not care too much what came back and I would also be smiling for a very long time
      That makes sense! I never thought of it from the perspective that Minnesota could be desiring to add some older players to complement their youth. I just assumed that as a small market team that a big priority in a trade like for them would be to ensure that they are being fiscally responsible for the long term. But Garcia could be a player that they would desire for his age and his position. SG appears to be their most blatant hole as they do not have any natural SG on their current roster.

      But seriously, kudos Matt52! I can truly appreciate a trade that clearly had good thought put into it, and it shows in this!
      http://twitter.com/m_shantz

      Comment


      • #33
        A twist: Assuming Toronto and Minnesota picks 1st/2nd or 2nd/1st

        Another stab at the idea from above adding Denver.

        (For whatever reason I can't get the yay or nay from the trade machine on this after trying multiple times - it seems like the trade machine is frozen. With that said, I do think it works).

        TOR: Ridnour, Tolliver, Webster, Thompson, draft rights to Irving, draft rights to Kanter
        MIN: Calderon, Garcia, draft rights to Williams
        SAC: Bargnani, Felton, Gallinari
        DEN: Casspi, Bayless, Alabi, MEM pick from MIN

        Rationale:

        TOR: Do I need to explain? This is the lineup:

        PG: Irving, Ridnour
        SG: DD, Barbosa
        SF: Webster, JJ, Kleiza
        PF: Davis, Amir, Tolliver
        C: Kanter, Thompson

        Webster provides 3 point shooting that would be much needed and becomes an asset moving forward based on the SF's possibly available in 2012 draft (Harrison Barnes, Terrence Jones, Perry Jones III, C.J. Leslie, Michael Gilchrist, Adonis Thomas, LeBryan Nash, Quincy Miller) assuming 1 and done's are still permitted. Webster has a team option after next season so could be considered an expiring. He is still only 24 and in a contract year might be worth a gamble. At worst he is a one year stop gap until next draft. If Kleiza can come back 100%, they have 3 decent, but no spectacular, players at the SF who could yield other possibilities (draft picks, trades). I see many similarities between JJ and Diaw and see JJ being a versatile bench player down the road as Diaw was in PHX.

        Ridnour is a solid back up who is capable of starting if needed. Thompson is a capable back up wh is capable of starting if needed, as well. I don't know why but I really like Tolliver - he is aggressive on the boards and can shoot - nice thing to have in your big man rotation.

        The Raps can then offer reasonable contracts a guy like Daequan Cook to help with the 3 point shooting woes. They could also possibly resign Reggie Evans if he was willing to accept a role deep on the bench and a reasonable contract.

        The Raps also maintain ridiculous flexibility financially moving forward as Barbosa, Tolliver, and Thompson would all come off the books following next season.

        MIN: Whether or not Rubio comes next year, this is still good for them. They get two solid veterans in the back court and locker room. Calderon has 2 years left so if not next year, the year after to help Ricky and can start in the meantime with Flynn backing him up.

        PG: Rubio???, Calderon, Flynn
        SG: Johnson, Garcia, Ellington
        SF: Beasley, Hayward
        PF: Williams, Randolph
        C: Love, Millicic, Petrovic

        SAC: Have spoken openly of trading pick. Cousins and Bargnani could be scary. They would be able to re-sign Thorton as a 6th man spark off the bench. Casspi was unhappy at the end of the year and Westphal said none of the teams wings took advantage of opportunities to claim the starting job - welcome Gallinari. Felton would be the PG SAC have been searching for. Felton, Gallinari, and Bargnani would stretch the floor for Evans and Cousins. SAC have also talked about taking on salary for next year in an effort to compete however I doubt they will be destination number one for free agents so a trade might be more realistic. They would still be nearly $20M under current salary cap to fill out roster.

        PG: Felton, Udrih
        SG: Evans, Thornton, Taylor
        SF: Gallinari, Greene
        PF: Bargnani, Whiteside
        C: Cousins

        DEN: Denver's motives for this trade are more business related than on court. They save $6M in salary in this trade taking their 2011-2012 payroll to only $23M. That $6M could be very valuable in ensuring they keep all three of Nene, Afflalo, and Chandler. Casspi is a similar player on a cheaper and one year longer contract than Gallinari. Bayless is an expiring contract and suitable backup with something to prove in his final year of rookie deal. Felton has said he wants to start and he most certainly would in SAC. Alabi is Ujiri's diamond in the rough and I only threw him in because I don't have much faith in him - at all. DEN gets another first round which they could package to move up or use as a sweetner in orther deals.

        PG: Lawson, Bayless
        SG: Afflalo?,
        SF: Chandler?, Casspi
        PF: Nene?, Harrington
        C: Andersen, Mosgov, Koufos, Alabi

        Plus two 2011 first round picks.

        Comment


        • #34
          The draft could be very interesting this year as both Sacramento and Minnesota have publically said that they would be willing to trade their pick. With potentially two high picks open to being moved, that leaves some options available to a lot of teams to either move up or to just gain an extra pick.

          I can't help but think we have pieces that could interest them without breaking up our core. Bargnani and Bayless are really the keys. Some might have a struggle with this, but if Kanter and Irving are coming back, we can fill those spots with players who have greater potential.
          http://twitter.com/m_shantz

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          • #35
            Shantz wrote: View Post
            The draft could be very interesting this year as both Sacramento and Minnesota have publically said that they would be willing to trade their pick. With potentially two high picks open to being moved, that leaves some options available to a lot of teams to either move up or to just gain an extra pick.

            I can't help but think we have pieces that could interest them without breaking up our core. Bargnani and Bayless are really the keys. Some might have a struggle with this, but if Kanter and Irving are coming back, we can fill those spots with players who have greater potential.
            If MIN and SAC were not interested in anything with their own pick, the four team deal could look something like this:

            TOR: Ridnour, Tolliver, Webster, Thompson, draft rights to Irving, draft rights to Kanter
            MIN: Calderon, Garcia, Casspi
            SAC: Bargnani, Felton, Gallinari
            DEN: Casspi, Bayless, Alabi, draft rights to Williams

            MIN would keep the MEM pick here.

            TOR and SAC lineups stay the same from previous post. HOwever, this might work out better for MIN and DEN, actually:

            MIN lineup:

            PG: Rubio???, Calderon, Flynn
            SG: Johnson, Garcia, Ellington
            SF: Beasley, Casspi, Hayward
            PF: Love, Randolph, MEM pick
            C: Millicic, Petrovic

            DEN lineup:

            PG: Lawson, Bayless
            SG: Afflalo?,
            SF: Chandler?, own first round pick
            PF: Williams, Harrington,
            C: Nene?, Andersen, Mosgov, Koufos, Alabi

            Comment


            • #36
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              If MIN and SAC were not interested in anything with their own pick, the four team deal could look something like this:

              TOR: Ridnour, Tolliver, Webster, Thompson, draft rights to Irving, draft rights to Kanter
              MIN: Calderon, Garcia, Casspi
              SAC: Bargnani, Felton, Gallinari
              DEN: Casspi, Bayless, Alabi, draft rights to Williams

              MIN would keep the MEM pick here.

              TOR and SAC lineups stay the same from previous post. HOwever, this might work out better for MIN and DEN, actually:

              MIN lineup:

              PG: Rubio???, Calderon, Flynn
              SG: Johnson, Garcia, Ellington
              SF: Beasley, Casspi, Hayward
              PF: Love, Randolph, MEM pick
              C: Millicic, Petrovic

              DEN lineup:

              PG: Lawson, Bayless
              SG: Afflalo?,
              SF: Chandler?, own first round pick
              PF: Williams, Harrington,
              C: Nene?, Andersen, Mosgov, Koufos, Alabi
              +1, I think that works perfectly! A couple good roles players and a high draft pick for Bargnani, Calderon, Bayless, and Alabi...I would call that a big win!
              http://twitter.com/m_shantz

              Comment


              • #37
                I don't care which one of those trades happen, just as long as it does. Please make this happen.
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                Follow me on Twitter.

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                • #38
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  If MIN and SAC were not interested in anything with their own pick, the four team deal could look something like this:

                  TOR: Ridnour, Tolliver, Webster, Thompson, draft rights to Irving, draft rights to Kanter
                  MIN: Calderon, Garcia, Casspi
                  SAC: Bargnani, Felton, Gallinari
                  DEN: Casspi, Bayless, Alabi, draft rights to Williams

                  MIN would keep the MEM pick here.

                  TOR and SAC lineups stay the same from previous post. HOwever, this might work out better for MIN and DEN, actually:

                  MIN lineup:

                  PG: Rubio???, Calderon, Flynn
                  SG: Johnson, Garcia, Ellington
                  SF: Beasley, Casspi, Hayward
                  PF: Love, Randolph, MEM pick
                  C: Millicic, Petrovic

                  DEN lineup:

                  PG: Lawson, Bayless
                  SG: Afflalo?,
                  SF: Chandler?, own first round pick
                  PF: Williams, Harrington,
                  C: Nene?, Andersen, Mosgov, Koufos, Alabi
                  All of a sudden none of this seems inplausible as it once was:

                  Where Rubio makes things really interesting is in this year's draft. The Timberwolves have the best chance statistically to win the lottery. However, this is being projected as one of the weaker draft classes in the last few years. It's really lacking in star power and there are only two players that really warrant consideration for the top selection: Duke point guard Kyrie Irving and Arizona forward Derrick Williams.

                  If they win the lottery, the Timberwolves aren't going to draft Irving right after ending a two-year quest to sign Rubio. Williams is an intriguing player with nice versatility, but ideally what they would like to do with the pick is trade it. After winning only 32 games combined over the last two years there is a demand to start winning a lot more regularly from the fan base and ownership.

                  They've been rebuilding for several years now and there is no lack of young talent on the roster. The need for proven veterans is far more pressing than another high draft pick who would come in with a lot of pressure to be a major contributor immediately. The pick will be shoped heavily whether they win the lottery or not. Amongst the things the Timberwolves would be looking for in a deal for their top first round pick would be an experienced point guard to mentor Rubio and an upgrade at the center position.

                  Read more NBA news and insight: http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?...#ixzz1MKVlmHgY
                  The draft lottery is going to be very intersting on Tuesday!! I cannot wait!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Sorry trying to reply with quote but it keeps freezing.

                    On your last trade I would suggest one addition to Denver. It helps/hurts us a little (both ways) but Denver likely wants some safety net at SG while they await the opportunity to sign FAs:
                    Add Barbosa to Den. Rough look salary wise it should still work out for Denver if not we get back Mosgov?
                    It certainly means we need to be more aggressive at finding a SG in FA but it may make Denver more comfortable with the trade.

                    As an aside if this addition happened would people be open to trading the 2012 pick and, Tolliver/Mosgov/Thompson to Port. for Batum? Is the potential of the pick better than Batum now? Is the pick growth time ok with POR now that they have Wallace and need bigs? Would this fit more into what BC would do since he wants young established talent?

                    Sorry on my phone so can't go into the machine to check.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      All of a sudden none of this seems inplausible as it once was:



                      The draft lottery is going to be very intersting on Tuesday!! I cannot wait!
                      I know anticipation is killing me along with the potential trades we have been talking about that BC is more than capable of pulling off.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        All of a sudden none of this seems inplausible as it once was:



                        The draft lottery is going to be very intersting on Tuesday!! I cannot wait!
                        If they are looking for an experienced PG to mentor Rubio - what is wrong with Ridnour? Joy and euphoria have given way to critical thinking.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Maleko wrote: View Post
                          Sorry trying to reply with quote but it keeps freezing.

                          On your last trade I would suggest one addition to Denver. It helps/hurts us a little (both ways) but Denver likely wants some safety net at SG while they await the opportunity to sign FAs:
                          Add Barbosa to Den. Rough look salary wise it should still work out for Denver if not we get back Mosgov?
                          It certainly means we need to be more aggressive at finding a SG in FA but it may make Denver more comfortable with the trade.

                          As an aside if this addition happened would people be open to trading the 2012 pick and, Tolliver/Mosgov/Thompson to Port. for Batum? Is the potential of the pick better than Batum now? Is the pick growth time ok with POR now that they have Wallace and need bigs? Would this fit more into what BC would do since he wants young established talent?

                          Sorry on my phone so can't go into the machine to check.
                          I think DEN having $6M more in cap flexibility and getting the draft rights to Derrick Williams should suffice. But your suggestion of Barbosa should still make it work and if it did not, they have a $17M TPE that would solve all. Of course, this would imply Barbosa opts in. Barbosa going to MIN and Garcia coming to Toronto could also be a possibility but I'd rather have Barbosa due to the expiring contract next season.

                          As for the 2012 pick, I wouldn't do it and I don't think POR would either.
                          Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat May 14, 2011, 09:14 AM.

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                          • #43
                            (All this assumes a draft order with MIN, TOR, SAC in the top 3 - SAC moves up from 5 and CLE moves to 4 or 5)

                            Given the HoopsWorld.com rumour, I am going to take another crack at it:

                            TOR: Webster, Tolliver, Flynn, Petrovic, draft rights to Irving and Kanter
                            MIN: Calderon, Garcia, Thompson
                            SAC: Bargnani, Felton, Gallinari
                            DEN: Casspi, Bayless, Alabi, draft rights to Williams

                            MIN gets an upgrade at C who still has upside, a mentor in Calderon, and a veteran wing in Garcia. This costs them a high lottery pick on the youngest team in the league and no starters. I think this is reasonable.

                            SAC gets a 20PPG scorer to compliment Cousins, a starting PG, and a starting SF while still leaving them $20M in cap space to add depth to the roster. The trade adds talent and experience to the roster which they are lacking on both counts. This costs them a high lottery pick and three players who struggled to stay in the starting line up all season on a 24 win team. I think this is reasonable.

                            DEN gets a player similar to Gallinari in Casspi in terms of skill set, a resolution to the starting PG controversy, Ujiri's project in Alabi, a top 3 lottery pick PF which they are lacking for next year that would fit their uptempo style of play, and $6M more to spend on their own and other free agents. They give up a starting quality PG who is their backup and a starting quality SF who is also a reserve when both Afflalo and Chandler were healthy. I think this is reasonable.

                            TOR gets a 24 year old SF with an injury history and immense talent with one year guaranteed remaining at a time when Kleiza will not be back until mid-season at the earliest and no other SF options on the roster besides James Johnson; a stretch big man who can rebound; a young PG with upside; a bruiser C who's value in the leauge is still undetermined skill wise but is a physical presence nonetheless; and a PG and C to compliment DeRozan and Davis who appear to have All-Star potential.

                            But what if CLE screws it up and takes Irving?

                            TOR: Webster, Tolliver, Flynn, Petrovic, draft rights to Walker and Kanter
                            MIN: Calderon, Garcia, Thompson
                            SAC: Bargnani, Felton, Gallinari
                            DEN: Casspi, Bayless, Alabi, draft rights to Williams

                            Do the exact same trade and substitute Walker for Iving.

                            What if CLE drafts Williams?

                            Remove DEN:

                            TOR: Flynn, Tolliver, Petrovic, draft rights to Irving/Walker and Kanter
                            SAC: Bargnani, Webster, draft rights to Irving/Walker or Leonard
                            MIN: Calderon, Garcia, Thompson, Casspi

                            What if CLE drafts Kanter?

                            Same combination of players with TOR drafting Valanciunas.

                            OR

                            Raps keep Bayless:

                            TOR: Ridnour, Tolliver, Petrovic, draft rights to Leonard and Kanter
                            MIN: Calderon, Garcia, Thompson
                            SAC: Bargnani, Felton, Gallinari
                            DEN: Casspi, Flynn, Alabi, draft rights to Williams
                            Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat May 14, 2011, 10:08 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Damn fine write-up I would say. In all cases I prefer Ridnour to Flynn, but considering rumours and Minny's thoughts on Flynn, more likely the latter.

                              Love the thoughts Matt.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                For those who find 3 or 4 team trades are unrealistic, here is another way to do some of the ideas from above:

                                Remember a player cannot be traded by a team receiving who is over the salary cap unless it is a one for one trade or 3 months have passed - this is why all the separate trades between TOR and MIN. Also imagination is needed in the 3 team deals with nothing going to SAC - remember those players are already on TOR from trade 1.

                                Raptors draft one of Kanter/Irving/Williams.
                                Wolves draft one of Kanter/Irving/Williams.
                                Kings draft one of Kanter/Walker

                                Trade 1:

                                http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=3wd9d4s

                                SAC: Bargnani, Bayless, Alabi, acquire draft rights to Williams
                                TOR: Garcia, Casspi, Thompson, acquire draft rights to Kanter/Walker

                                Trade 2a:

                                MIN: Thompson
                                TOR: Draft rights to MIN first round pick (Kanter/Irving)

                                Trade 2b:

                                http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=3u5sxfl

                                MIN: Calderon
                                TOR: Webster, Flynn

                                Trade 2c:

                                http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=3bnnwkm

                                MIN: Casspi
                                TOR: Tolliver (use TPE)

                                Trade 2d:

                                MIN: Garcia
                                TOR: Petrovic


                                Raps lineup:

                                PG: Irving, Flynn
                                SG: DD, Barbosa
                                SF: Webster, JJ, Kleiza
                                PF: Davis, Amir, Tolliver
                                C: Kanter, Petrovic

                                Wolves lineup:

                                PG: Rubio, Calderon, Ridnour
                                SG: Johnson, Garcia, Ellington
                                SF: Beasley, Casspi, Hayward
                                PF: Love, Randolph
                                C: Thompson, Milicic

                                Kings lineup:

                                PG: Bayless, Udrih
                                SG: Evans, Thorton?, Taylor
                                SF: Williams, Greene
                                PF: Bargnani, Whiteside
                                C: Cousins, Alabi
                                Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat May 14, 2011, 03:13 PM.

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