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Apollo wrote: View PostYeah, you throw him on the floor with Ed, DeMar and JJ and suddenly Bargnani's big man inadequacies aren't as important... He would be a nice piece to add to the core and right now with what seems to a draft that will lose out Harrison Barnes and will see the Raptors probably selecting 5th or 6th, Kemba Walker definitely comes into range.
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joey_hesketh wrote: View PostBen Gordon is from England isn't he? But ya, I guess he grew up in New York.
But anyway, Ben Gordon was MUCH more of a shooter than Kemba is. I don't remember Gordon EVER being considered an NBA PG. Kemba is much more diverse and capable ball handler, attacker, penetrator, passer, defender etc. In my opinion. And I watched Gordon quite a bit.
I don't view Kemba as a "shoot-first combo guard".. but I guess that is where we disagree.
He is a leader who is capable of taking over a game when he needs too, if that needs to be seen as 'shoot-first' then I guess I'm saying we do. But he is more than comfortable defering to teammates and getting others involved ala Bucknell (18 points 12 assists 8 rebounds.) He is a HIGH motor player, that very few players have. For your on court leader to exhibit confidence and swagger and capability to back that up is a BIG plus for any team. Not to mention the kid is a menace on defense.
Deron Williams shoots ENOUGH shots. Is he a 'shoot-first' PG?
Or does he just do what he has too to win the game?
ADD: And thats all you can respond to of my post? Not to be pushy or anything, I was just looking forward to more I guess. Haha
joey_hesketh wrote: View PostBen Gordon was MUCH more of a shooter than Kemba is
Player GP MIN PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% FT% 3P%
Ben Gordon 39 34.5 18.5 4.7 4.5 1.4 0.2 2.8 .434 .829 .433 (03-04)
Kemba Walker 37 37.5 23.6 5.4 4.5 1.9 0.2 2.2 .431 .818 .340 (10-11)
Player MIN FGM FGA FTM FTA 3PM 3PA PTS OFFR DEFR REB AST TO STL BLK
Ben Gordon 1346 239 551 141 170 104 240 723 34 150 184 176 108 53 6
Kemba Walker 1386 286 663 234 286 69 203 875 51 150 201 167 81 71 6
This is where we differ brother. You think Kemba is Allen Iverson like. I think the kid is Ben Gordon like. He'll come into the league by storm his first season, much like Gordon did. But over time, it'll tail off and he'll become a high volume shooter like Gordon. The kid isn't like Deron Williams or Chris Paul, when they were at Illinois and Wake Forest respectively. Hell, I wouldn't even say he's like TJ Ford when Ford came out of Texas. Those guys were actual floor generals. They score when needed to, but they have a high enough basketball IQ and court vision to make plays for other and to distribute the rock. I'm not saying Walker is a bad player or will be a bad pro, I just think he won't live up to the lofty expectations that some of you have for him.
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Ok, well by the sounds of it, most people here agree with me.
Clearly you don't really watch Kemba or UConn play. Ben Gordon WAS a shooting guard. With unlimited range. Kemba doesn't take nearly as many shots as Gordon did from the outside or Midrange. He slashes to the basket and gets the fouls, gets the basket or dishes to an open teammate. He IS a general. Top 4 player in the country. Not sure where you are getting that from. He takes those shots because he needs to. Because those shots help put his team in a better position to win.
And you again forget to mention the fact that he is an epic on ball defender.
Something people around here have harped our Backcourt on for yeears.
And to Matt, I don't think Barnes has said he's out for sure, he's only said he wants to win a title with UNC.. I think. So if they don't win it this year, then look for him to stay? Not sure really, but thats what I got out of it.Last edited by Joey; Tue Mar 22, 2011, 10:39 AM.
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Matt52 wrote: View PostHas Barnes said he is out for sure?
So when elite players like North Carolina freshman Harrison Barnes decide to stay in school, it's frustrating to say the least. Sure, Tar Heels fans should be excited to hear ESPN.com writer Chad Ford's report that Barnes will likely stay at Chapel Hill, but what kind of hope does that offer Cleveland Cavaliers fans?
"He's the sort of guy who cares about more than just going to the NBA," a source told Ford. "He wants to leave his mark."
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MangoKid wrote: View PostYou don't look at Walker as a shoot first/combo guard? The kid's taken 330 more shots than anyone else on the team. This season, he's taken over 100 more shots than Gordon did his final season. Both weren't considered passers, but both were the starting PG's on their respective UConn teams.
When UCONN won the game that put them in the finals of the regional tournament - this is coming from a commentator at the final - all the UCONN players stood and clapped for Walker when he made it back to the dressing room after the post-game interview. As if to say, "You're the reason we made it this far."
I'm not saying this to argue how good he is, I'm saying this to argue how important his scoring is to his team, and how much his teammates absolutely have no issue with his shooting so much more than they do.
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joey_hesketh wrote: View PostOk, well by the sounds of it, most people here agree with me.
Clearly you don't really watch Kemba or UConn play. Ben Gordon WAS a shooting guard. With unlimited range. Kemba doesn't take nearly as many shots as Gordon did from the outside or Midrange. He slashes to the basket and gets the fouls, gets the basket or dishes to an open teammate. He IS a general. Top 4 player in the country. Not sure where you are getting that from. He takes those shots because he needs to. Because those shots help put his team in a better position to win.
And you again forget to mention the fact that he is an epic on ball defender.
Something people around here have harped our Backcourt on for yeears.
And to Matt, I don't think Barnes has said he's out for sure, he's only said he wants to win a title with UNC.. I think. So if they don't win it this year, then look for him to stay? Not sure really, but thats what I got out of it.Last edited by MangoKid; Tue Mar 22, 2011, 11:02 AM.
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MangoKid wrote: View PostBG was born in England, raised in New York (Mt. Vernon).
You don't look at Walker as a shoot first/combo guard? The kid's taken 330 more shots than anyone else on the team. This season, he's taken over 100 more shots than Gordon did his final season. Both weren't considered passers, but both were the starting PG's on their respective UConn teams.
Player GP MIN PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% FT% 3P%
Ben Gordon 39 34.5 18.5 4.7 4.5 1.4 0.2 2.8 .434 .829 .433 (03-04)
Kemba Walker 37 37.5 23.6 5.4 4.5 1.9 0.2 2.2 .431 .818 .340 (10-11)
Player MIN FGM FGA FTM FTA 3PM 3PA PTS OFFR DEFR REB AST TO STL BLK
Ben Gordon 1346 239 551 141 170 104 240 723 34 150 184 176 108 53 6
Kemba Walker 1386 286 663 234 286 69 203 875 51 150 201 167 81 71 6
This is where we differ brother. You think Kemba is Allen Iverson like. I think the kid is Ben Gordon like. He'll come into the league by storm his first season, much like Gordon did. But over time, it'll tail off and he'll become a high volume shooter like Gordon. The kid isn't like Deron Williams or Chris Paul, when they were at Illinois and Wake Forest respectively. Hell, I wouldn't even say he's like TJ Ford when Ford came out of Texas. Those guys were actual floor generals. They score when needed to, but they have a high enough basketball IQ and court vision to make plays for other and to distribute the rock. I'm not saying Walker is a bad player or will be a bad pro, I just think he won't live up to the lofty expectations that some of you have for him.
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Apollo wrote: View PostI don't think they're the same at all and stats aren't the tell tale sign of who he is. I can go out and drop down Jameer Nelson's St.Joe's stats line and Walker would compare with that as well. Nelson and Gordon are a lot different. Watching the guy play should be evidence enough that he and Ben Gordon aren't the same guy. Here's the main difference. Ben Gordon was known for his scoring and not much more... Walker brings it on defense as well. He also takes care of the basketball. Walker no doubt takes a lot of shots right now but that's because it's offering his team the best chance to win. He's their leader, he's carrying them where ever they're going. He's a smart player, with an excellent handle, great athleticism and so why would we box him into a corner because his team is forced to rely on him to do it all?
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MangoKid wrote: View PostANd the A/T isn't what it should be for a good PG. Is Walker a good player? Sure, I don't dispute that in the least. Is he a leader for his team, sure. But is he a true floor general the way Williams, Paul or Ford was? No. I wouldn't even say he's as good as Ty Lawson. And the stats don't lie.
John Wall: 1.625
Jonny Flynn: 1.97
Avery Bradley: 1.37
Derrick Rose: 1.88
Russell Westbrook: 1.72
Tyreke Evans: 1.08
Steph Curry: 1.5
Deron Williams: 2.46
Chris Paul: 2.23
Ty Lawson: 3.46
Walker (2.06) is ahead of good company and behind good company. No one on that list was as prolific of a scorer as Walker either with the exception of Curry who took 20 more shots in 3 less games and had another 1.5 TO per game.
Personally, I am starting to think Walker is worth the hype he has been given.
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Ok so you considered Stephen Curry THE Shoot-First guard coming out of college as well right?
I mean if Kemba is shoot-first, and he only averaged 10FGA a game, and Curry managed to put up 20 shots a game, and took like 150 more 3's than Kemba has in ONE year. By the sounds of it, Stephen Curry is going to be a Ben Gordon type, combo guard at best, not a top tier PG ...
ADD: I see Matt made the Curry comparison before I did. Nice one. haha
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MangoKid wrote: View PostI'm disputing that Walker won't be a solid pro. I think he will...
MangoKid wrote: View PostI don't think however that he'll reach a high tier of being an upper eschelon PG....
He's still a better option I think than either of the Raptor's current point guards.
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MangoKid wrote: View PostWhere did I ever state that Walker wouldn't be a solid player? I think I've said on a couple of occassions that he will be a solid pro. More combo guard than anything. Doesn't make him any less of a player. I don't think however that he'll reach a high tier of being an upper eschelon PG. That's just my opinion. Doesn't make me right, but sure doesn't make me wrong. The Gordon comparison was drawn because both wen to UConn, are quick and athletic, they're both small-ish in stature and were labelled as being PGs coming out of college. The kid does shoot a lot, and the assist totals are a bit on the low side.
Matt52 wrote: View PostCollege assist to turnover ratio for last year in college:
John Wall: 1.625
Jonny Flynn: 1.97
Avery Bradley: 1.37
Derrick Rose: 1.88
Russell Westbrook: 1.72
Tyreke Evans: 1.08
Steph Curry: 1.5
Deron Williams: 2.46
Chris Paul: 2.23
Ty Lawson: 3.46
Walker (2.06) is ahead of good company and behind good company. No one on that list was as prolific of a scorer as Walker either with the exception of Curry who took 20 more shots in 3 less games and had another 1.5 TO per game.
Personally, I am starting to think Walker is worth the hype he has been given.
In a draft devoid of many players who have the potential to be special players, he has the potential to be a special player.
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