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Thread: "The Raptors Are Good, but They Might Have to Blow It Up to Be Great" - The Ringer.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Default "The Raptors Are Good, but They Might Have to Blow It Up to Be Great" - The Ringer.

    Full Article: "The Raptors Are Good, but They Might Have to Blow It Up to Be Great" - The Ringer.

    Timing a team’s rise is the hardest thing an NBA front office can do. But if there were ever a time to trade a superstar for a high lottery pick, it’s now. The top 10 in 2017 is loaded, and the 2018 draft is stacked up top, too, with the likes of Michael Porter Jr., Luka Doncic, and DeAndre Ayton likely to be part of the pool. As LeBron ages, there will be a new era of stars who dominate the league. The teams led by those players could be the alphas everyone else is chasing.

    What’s transpired in Toronto over the past four years has been exhilarating for the city and the franchise. If the Raptors go to the Finals, expect no major roster changes. But the odds are not in their favor. LeBron is a roadblock, and a final boss awaits in the West. If the Raptors suffer another early playoff exit, Ujiri’s past suggests he will reshape the team’s future.
    The writer plays around with the possibility of the Raptors re-signing Lowry this off-season, in the hopes of trading him in the future and retooling with a younger core for the Post-LBJ NBA. He also brings up the option of moving DeRozan for similar reasons, and moving them both as well gets brought up.

    There's plenty of small details about the team in the article that I feel the writer is misguided on, but that's usually the case when a general NBA writer tries to tackle the Raptors.

    I'm sure there will be some passionate thoughts on the article though, and wanted to post it for discussion.
    Last edited by Fully; Mon Mar 27th, 2017 at 11:00 AM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Maury's Avatar
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    It's a fair point but as constructed we can win a title if everything goes right. I know that seems crazy but we matchup with any team in the league, and all we need is Kyle and demar to play like superstars in the playoffs with consistent output from guys like serge, norm and JV. This isnt guaranteed and things can go wrong, but I think we have a real shot with this core for maybe 2-3 years and it's worth it to ride it out IMO. Build respectability with this franchise. As well, I think keeping demar for his whole career would be a smart move as it will improve our reputation in the league.


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    Quote Maury wrote: View Post
    It's a fair point but as constructed we can win a title if everything goes right. I know that seems crazy but we matchup with any team in the league, and all we need is Kyle and demar to play like superstars in the playoffs with consistent output from guys like serge, norm and JV. This isnt guaranteed and things can go wrong, but I think we have a real shot with this core for maybe 2-3 years and it's worth it to ride it out IMO. Build respectability with this franchise. As well, I think keeping demar for his whole career would be a smart move as it will improve our reputation in the league.


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    The one thing that scares me about this whole "2 to 3 yest window" thing..it's gonna be nearly impossible to maintain a group as good as this group should be when lowry returns. We all know we're going to be in salary cap hell after this season, and at least 2, likely 3, possibly 4 of joseph, carroll, valanciunas, Patterson and tucker won't be back at the expense of lowry and ibakas new (massive) deals.

    This year is should be exciting though so I'm not a big fan of fretting about later worries. But combine those with future deals for powell, wright, etc..it will be very hard to maintain. Better hope Ujiri can find more draft steals and keep killing teams in trade.
    11/20/16 Lest we forget - The Sacramento Screw Job.
    We will not go quietly in the night. We will rage against the dying light. We will study every buzzer beater with intensified might, because somethin with the NBA doesn't smell right.

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    Quote Maury wrote: View Post
    It's a fair point but as constructed we can win a title if everything goes right. I know that seems crazy but we matchup with any team in the league, and all we need is Kyle and demar to play like superstars in the playoffs with consistent output from guys like serge, norm and JV. This isnt guaranteed and things can go wrong, but I think we have a real shot with this core for maybe 2-3 years and it's worth it to ride it out IMO. Build respectability with this franchise. As well, I think keeping demar for his whole career would be a smart move as it will improve our reputation in the league.


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    I think we have to factor in our history and culture building as well. We haven't been able to retain or attract FAs in the past and we never made it past the 1st Rd in 20 yrs, until last yr. A few respectable playoff runs, retaining our top 10 rookie pick and trade assets in FA and the growth of our fan base is huge. If we lose in the 1st then I think masai will largely keep the core but fire Casey as a first measure. The same result next yr, then I think he blows it up.
    As the OP points out, the writer has a general perspective on franchise building but we're not an established team. We're the youngest alongside the Grizz and they've had more success. Even the magic have been more successful in their 6 yrs of seniority to us. We're better than the wolves tho!

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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    The one thing that scares me about this whole "2 to 3 yest window" thing..it's gonna be nearly impossible to maintain a group as good as this group should be when lowry returns. We all know we're going to be in salary cap hell after this season, and at least 2, likely 3, possibly 4 of joseph, carroll, valanciunas, Patterson and tucker won't be back at the expense of lowry and ibakas new (massive) deals.

    This year is should be exciting though so I'm not a big fan of fretting about later worries. But combine those with future deals for powell, wright, etc..it will be very hard to maintain. Better hope Ujiri can find more draft steals and keep killing teams in trade.
    Id be fine with letting go of Joseph in the offseason and having Wright and Fred as 2nd and 3rd string PGs. Also would be ok with letting JV go for a cheaper centre that fits better with this team in order to keep the most important pieces of this team together long term.
    Last edited by Machine; Mon Mar 27th, 2017 at 11:01 AM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Maury wrote: View Post
    It's a fair point but as constructed we can win a title if everything goes right. I know that seems crazy but we matchup with any team in the league, and all we need is Kyle and demar to play like superstars in the playoffs with consistent output from guys like serge, norm and JV. This isnt guaranteed and things can go wrong, but I think we have a real shot with this core for maybe 2-3 years and it's worth it to ride it out IMO.
    To is me there is a far higher chance that a team will get superstar performances from their superstar players, than a team getting superstar performances with no superstars on their roster. Thus, as much as you would hope that Kyle and DeMar play like superstars in the playoffs, it's unlikely. I've seen players play out of their minds before, but here we are talking about it happening in 2-3 7-game series in a row.
    Last edited by ebrian; Mon Mar 27th, 2017 at 11:05 AM.
    your pal,
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    The one thing that scares me about this whole "2 to 3 yest window" thing..it's gonna be nearly impossible to maintain a group as good as this group should be when lowry returns. We all know we're going to be in salary cap hell after this season, and at least 2, likely 3, possibly 4 of joseph, carroll, valanciunas, Patterson and tucker won't be back at the expense of lowry and ibakas new (massive) deals.

    This year is should be exciting though so I'm not a big fan of fretting about later worries. But combine those with future deals for powell, wright, etc..it will be very hard to maintain. Better hope Ujiri can find more draft steals and keep killing teams in trade.
    What's nice about the way this team is built is that there's still a good chance we get better from just internal growth.

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    I think if this group performs you reward them by rolling with it for another year or two. I don't think we need to even consider trading lowry for another year or two. I don't really like the idea of doing that anyways because I don't think we need to take a step back. A step back would mean a step back for 4-5 years potentially... It isn't like we will be getting into the lottery. The market for point guards isn't the best so trading Lowry won't net the return we want.

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    Quote Machine wrote: View Post
    Id be fine with letting go of Joseph in the offseason and having Wright and Fred as 2nd and 3rd string PGs. Also would be ok with letting JV go for a cheaper centre that fits better with this team in order to keep the most important pieces of this team together long term.
    Sure, I'm confident in the next man up coming in though the pipelines. But say theoretically it's bye bye cojo carroll and jv with little in the way of nba rotation guys coming back. We're kidding ourselves if we think theres no drop off suffered
    11/20/16 Lest we forget - The Sacramento Screw Job.
    We will not go quietly in the night. We will rage against the dying light. We will study every buzzer beater with intensified might, because somethin with the NBA doesn't smell right.

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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Sure, I'm confident in the next man up coming in though the pipelines. But say theoretically it's bye bye cojo carroll and jv with little in the way of nba rotation guys coming back. We're kidding ourselves if we think theres no drop off suffered
    JV in particular offers a look for this team no one else on the roster can.

    I'd have no issue shedding CoJo and Carroll for nothing if we keep Wright, Van Vleet, Powell and Tucker.

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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Sure, I'm confident in the next man up coming in though the pipelines. But say theoretically it's bye bye cojo carroll and jv with little in the way of nba rotation guys coming back. We're kidding ourselves if we think theres no drop off suffered
    I really believe the PG situation would be fine. We would definitely need a decent 3 and D wing with size replacement for Carroll for sure which would probably be difficult to find. But i do think we could find a cheap center to replace JV who may fit better. Even Poeltl has been looking decent enough.

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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    JV in particular offers a look for this team no one else on the roster can.

    I'd have no issue shedding CoJo and Carroll for nothing if we keep Wright, Van Vleet, Powell and Tucker.
    Yeah I hear ya about JV there. Especially useful in playoffs. My only concern is he seems a bit expensive for the way Casey uses him.

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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    JV in particular offers a look for this team no one else on the roster can.

    I'd have no issue shedding CoJo and Carroll for nothing if we keep Wright, Van Vleet, Powell and Tucker.
    I do agree wholeheartedly, but I also wonder now if the poeltl draft pick was made with this offseason in mind. Did masai anticipate adding a 3rd banana (ibaka) and cutting our 17 million 7 footer?
    11/20/16 Lest we forget - The Sacramento Screw Job.
    We will not go quietly in the night. We will rage against the dying light. We will study every buzzer beater with intensified might, because somethin with the NBA doesn't smell right.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran TRex's Avatar
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    Is this about tanking again??

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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Is this about tanking again??
    Nope, it's simply devils advocate on an approach if we're serious about winning titles. The writer of the article had an interesting response in the comments to someone who said "this is stupid, so everyone who isn't cavs or warriors should blow it up"

    Nope. This was addressed. The Raptors could lock themselves into an aging roster core. That’s the issue for them. Spurs have a transcendent level player in Kawhi. Rockets have one in Harden. The Wizards two stars are young. The Bucks are young. This isn’t unique to the Raptors but they are the best case study in today’s league.
    I'm not saying I agree with it, but we truly are in a unique nba position. Tough to say if we're "between a rock and a hard place", or if we're in a great, enviable position. Or are we somehow both at the same time?
    11/20/16 Lest we forget - The Sacramento Screw Job.
    We will not go quietly in the night. We will rage against the dying light. We will study every buzzer beater with intensified might, because somethin with the NBA doesn't smell right.

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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Sure, I'm confident in the next man up coming in though the pipelines. But say theoretically it's bye bye cojo carroll and jv with little in the way of nba rotation guys coming back. We're kidding ourselves if we think theres no drop off suffered
    I'm completely okay with letting Carroll and Joseph go. Wright will be a good player, he'll be the backup PG full time, and we can always find a cheaper SF. Getting rid of JV will be a problem. I don't think Poeltl will be ready to be the starting C yet, his defense is solid, but his rebounding is still questionable. Only way this works is if Masai finds the new Biyombo, a C on a reasonable contract who overachieves.

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    There will always be great/good players on other teams, that will never change. What can change is how many great/good players we have on our team, and since right now we have as many as we've ever had we've got to go for it while we have them.

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    This team proved capable of a top 5 offence already this year, now they look to have the personnel for a top 5 defence. Any time you can be top 5 at both ends of the floor, fuck the conventional superstar wisdom, that is a talented team that has as reasonable a shot as anybody, better than many teams who have managed to land their franchise superstar guy.

    Basically this team has continued to improve and defy expectations ever since Dolan blocked the Lowry trade. Ujiri has done the right thing in riding it out and working with it to see how far it'll go, and that's still the right thing to do.
    "Control DeRozan's catch-shoot game. He rarely passes. Defend the ball. Much of what they do reverses to 1 on 1 play." -- Visitor Locker Room Whiteboard, Air Canada Centre, Feb. 26, 2015

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    This team proved capable of a top 5 offence already this year, now they look to have the personnel for a top 5 defence. Any time you can be top 5 at both ends of the floor, fuck the conventional superstar wisdom, that is a talented team that has as reasonable a shot as anybody, better than many teams who have managed to land their franchise superstar guy.

    Basically this team has continued to improve and defy expectations ever since Dolan blocked the Lowry trade. Ujiri has done the right thing in riding it out and working with it to see how far it'll go, and that's still the right thing to do.
    Well maybe a little less of a reasonable shot than the team that has a top 2 offense and defense. But overall I agree.

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    Also, though I've been contributing to this discussion, we need to remember to enjoy what's in front of us. There will be PLENTY of time to discuss this all ad nauseum when the run is over. But right now we could have the 4th or 5th best team once healthy and a chance to say we can beat the cavs without dying of laughter. It's a disservice to ourselves as fans to not enjoy this spring, the here and now, before decisions have to be made.

    Never take anything for granted like "we'll be back" when you have a good team right here right now
    11/20/16 Lest we forget - The Sacramento Screw Job.
    We will not go quietly in the night. We will rage against the dying light. We will study every buzzer beater with intensified might, because somethin with the NBA doesn't smell right.

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