Everything Derozan

[The Great One]

I think that was either McHappy or OldSkool

Yep

[DanH]

DeRozan's mechanics isn't really that bad. He shoots the ball a lot like Kobe.

Shawn Marion probably has the ugliest shot in NBA history and at one point he shot 36% from 3. LeBron's mechanics isn't perfect but look at him. Also, i think Lonzo Ball is going to make a lot of 3's this year.

Yes, and in only 4 years of his long career did Kobe exceed 35% from three.

Marion similarly had 3 good shooting years in his long career.

Same with DeMar. He shot 34% from 3 a couple seasons ago, but that doesn't mean he was a real threat from long range - he'll likely never be a consistent threat from long range. That said, he's proven everyone wrong before, there's always a chance, but there are more important aspects of his game I'd rather he focus on - playmaking/decision-making and defence, in particular.

[The Great One]

Yes, and in only 4 years of his long career did Kobe exceed 35% from three.

Marion similarly had 3 good shooting years in his long career.

Same with DeMar. He shot 34% from 3 a couple seasons ago, but that doesn't mean he was a real threat from long range - he'll likely never be a consistent threat from long range. That said, he's proven everyone wrong before, there's always a chance, but there are more important aspects of his game I'd rather he focus on - playmaking/decision-making and defence, in particular.

Defensively, this is what he is. He just doesn't have the lateral quickness to be a good/great defender. I just wish he'd put more effort though guarding his man.

As for playmaking, I think he's already a much improved playmaker.

3pt shooting is the most important thing. Shooting 3's is easy if you actually work on it. He needs to add a 3pt shot in his game.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Defensively, this is what he is. He just doesn't have the lateral quickness to be a good/great defender. I just wish he'd put more effort though guarding his man.

As for playmaking, I think he's already a much improved playmaker.

3pt shooting is the most important thing. Shooting 3's is easy if you actually work on it. He needs to add a 3pt shot in his game.

There have been at least 3 or 4 offseasons when DeRozan and/or the team came out and stated 3pt shooting was his priority, and it often resulted in early season improvements, before crashing back to reality. If his attitude is any indication, he doesn't seem to feel adding a consistent 3pt shot is necessary for him to succeed.

That has been my one ongoing frustration with DeRozan. Yes, he can score. However, whether it's 3pt shooting or facilitating for teammates more, he doesn't seem to get that both of those things would only serve to make his scoring come more easily, while making him more effective as an all-around player (plus help the team perform better). His mentality seems to be that he can score the way he has just fine, he's going to carry the team, and haters be damned. I like him playing with a chip on his shoulder, I like the way the #ProveEm motivates him, but he doesn't seem willing to step back and see the big picture at times.

[The Claw Reborn]

There have been at least 3 or 4 offseasons when DeRozan and/or the team came out and stated 3pt shooting was his priority, and it often resulted in early season improvements, before crashing back to reality. If his attitude is any indication, he doesn't seem to feel adding a consistent 3pt shot is necessary for him to succeed.

That has been my one ongoing frustration with DeRozan. Yes, he can score. However, whether it's 3pt shooting or facilitating for teammates more, he doesn't seem to get that both of those things would only serve to make his scoring come more easily, while making him more effective as an all-around player (plus help the team perform better). His mentality seems to be that he can score the way he has just fine, he's going to carry the team, and haters be damned. I like him playing with a chip on his shoulder, I like the way the #ProveEm motivates him, but he doesn't seem willing to step back and see the big picture at times.

Very well said.

Not only he has to extend his range but he also has to develop Shooting the three in a catch and shoot situation, on a pick and pop, picking up the ball while in motion and against a defender.

That's hard to learn at your 9th fucking year in the league.

Way different shooting the three using a damn contraption at a measly 64% without a live body in front of you exposed off a smelly armpit with a b.o.

After all that learning, another season of learning of playing defense then another season of court awareness.

That's three years total, by then Ujiri is ready to blew this up. I guess that's perfect timing if seeing this glass half full. Good God

[The Claw Reborn]

I guess I'm not surprised of the patience.

After all Ujiri picked Bruno who is 10 years away from 2 years away. Ugh

[Scraptor]

There have been at least 3 or 4 offseasons when DeRozan and/or the team came out and stated 3pt shooting was his priority, and it often resulted in early season improvements, before crashing back to reality. If his attitude is any indication, he doesn't seem to feel adding a consistent 3pt shot is necessary for him to succeed.

That has been my one ongoing frustration with DeRozan. Yes, he can score. However, whether it's 3pt shooting or facilitating for teammates more, he doesn't seem to get that both of those things would only serve to make his scoring come more easily, while making him more effective as an all-around player (plus help the team perform better). His mentality seems to be that he can score the way he has just fine, he's going to carry the team, and haters be damned. I like him playing with a chip on his shoulder, I like the way the #ProveEm motivates him, but he doesn't seem willing to step back and see the big picture at times.

I think it's really dicey to think you can read DeMar's mind and come to the conclusion that it's his "attitude" that's to blame. The guy just posted an instagram of him shooting 700 threes. He clearly recognizes there's an issue, and has for a long time. But it has always seemed to me like a combination of mechanical/confidence issues rather than some kind of attitude problem. How many times have you seen DeMar consider the three but freeze up and drive instead? Why would he show early season improvements, and a willingness to shoot more threes (like in November 2013, before his confidence crashed), if he didn't care?

As for the facilitating, the goalposts keep getting moved. The guy has quadrupled his assist rate form his rookie season. He had a better assist % in 2016-17 than the following wings:

Bradley Beal
Gordon Hayward
Kawhi Leonard
Paul George
CJ McCollum

In my opinion the debate around DeMar has largely been the result of unrealistic expectations. He is a ninth overall pick who was drafted as a raw athletic player, and the fact that he has improved so much has led people to believe that he can keep improving to meet some kind of Harden-esque ideal. It's simply not fair to him. 27/5/3.9 on 55%TS is pretty outstanding. Here is a list of players who have notched those marks for a season since the year 2000:

Kobe
Curry
KD
Harden
LeBron
TMac
DWade

A total of 25 times in 17 years (DeMar had the 26th). Yes, his style of play may not be ideal, and it may be frustrating to watch our offense send him into contested lanes over and over again, but he is deceptively effective. What's more, I believe his style of play has partly evolved to adapt to his weaknesses; with a mediocre first step and a lack of flashy handles, he has to rely on footwork and shiftiness to get buckets and break down defences.

And even then that's just a theory. We can't be sure how much of this play style is due to "hell or high water" "ride or die" "this is not a democracy offensively" Dwane Casey.

But I don't think it's his attitude/mentality that's the problem as much as he is simply incapable of being what we often wish him to be: a true 1A superstar. That's not his fault, and it's also not his fault that that's how he's paid. I hope he proves me wrong, and reaches another level, but I can't really ask for much more than what he gave us last season.

[Puffer]

I am content with Derozan. He has made manor changes in his game. The big one for me was his decision making with the ball. He has improved significantly over the last two years. I am not diminishing his ball handling or shooting, but his decision making was what used to drive me nuts. Of course, improving his ball handling now allows him to drive into a cluster of players and fight through for a decent shot and/or a foul shooting opportunity, when he previously would have gotten stripped. But he also now passes to open teammates more often. Many times for a hockey assist that doesn't show in in the stats, but do help the team. If he extends his range and can hit more threes, great. If not, I can accept him for the player he is and give him credit for it.

[golden]

I think it's really dicey to think you can read DeMar's mind and come to the conclusion that it's his "attitude" that's to blame. The guy just posted an instagram of him shooting 700 threes. He clearly recognizes there's an issue, and has for a long time. But it has always seemed to me like a combination of mechanical/confidence issues rather than some kind of attitude problem. How many times have you seen DeMar consider the three but freeze up and drive instead? Why would he show early season improvements, and a willingness to shoot more threes (like in November 2013, before his confidence crashed), if he didn't care?

As for the facilitating, the goalposts keep getting moved. The guy has quadrupled his assist rate form his rookie season. He had a better assist % in 2016-17 than the following wings:

Bradley Beal
Gordon Hayward
Kawhi Leonard
Paul George
CJ McCollum

In my opinion the debate around DeMar has largely been the result of unrealistic expectations. He is a ninth overall pick who was drafted as a raw athletic player, and the fact that he has improved so much has led people to believe that he can keep improving to meet some kind of Harden-esque ideal. It's simply not fair to him. 27/5/3.9 on 55%TS is pretty outstanding. Here is a list of players who have notched those marks for a season since the year 2000:

Kobe
Curry
KD
Harden
LeBron
TMac
DWade

A total of 25 times in 17 years (DeMar had the 26th). Yes, his style of play may not be ideal, and it may be frustrating to watch our offense send him into contested lanes over and over again, but he is deceptively effective. What's more, I believe his style of play has partly evolved to adapt to his weaknesses; with a mediocre first step and a lack of flashy handles, he has to rely on footwork and shiftiness to get buckets and break down defences.

And even then that's just a theory. We can't be sure how much of this play style is due to "hell or high water" "ride or die" "this is not a democracy offensively" Dwane Casey.

But I don't think it's his attitude/mentality that's the problem as much as he is simply incapable of being what we often wish him to be: a true 1A superstar. That's not his fault, and it's also not his fault that that's how he's paid. I hope he proves me wrong, and reaches another level, but I can't really ask for much more than what he gave us last season.

I'd be more than happy to see DeMar's individual numbers go down if that means more ball movement and better decision-making to optimize more of the other players. There was a like a 3-4 game stretch after Lowry got injured, where DeMar and JV were developing some nice PnR chemistry - DD actually hitting the rolling big in traffic. And the team was finding Carroll cutting to the basket. This was all predicated on DeMar moving the ball and giving it up early.

That's one of my biggest issues. Casey has skewed to offense to such an extreme level to compensate for DeMar's lack of pace & space that it precludes running other types of high percentage basketball plays in favor of opening up driving seams for DeMar. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big DeRozan fan and am thrilled that he's exceeded all expectations; but he's a challenging piece to build around in the modern pace & space NBA. The Raps strength is their depth and without a Lebron type, we need to get more production out of role players and I don't think the Ride or Die style of play does that. Everybody (including me) dumped on DeMarre Carroll for being salty, but that was basically his main point.

[LJ2]

I think it's really dicey to think you can read DeMar's mind and come to the conclusion that it's his "attitude" that's to blame. The guy just posted an instagram of him shooting 700 threes. He clearly recognizes there's an issue, and has for a long time. But it has always seemed to me like a combination of mechanical/confidence issues rather than some kind of attitude problem. How many times have you seen DeMar consider the three but freeze up and drive instead? Why would he show early season improvements, and a willingness to shoot more threes (like in November 2013, before his confidence crashed), if he didn't care?

As for the facilitating, the goalposts keep getting moved. The guy has quadrupled his assist rate form his rookie season. He had a better assist % in 2016-17 than the following wings:

Bradley Beal
Gordon Hayward
Kawhi Leonard
Paul George
CJ McCollum

In my opinion the debate around DeMar has largely been the result of unrealistic expectations. He is a ninth overall pick who was drafted as a raw athletic player, and the fact that he has improved so much has led people to believe that he can keep improving to meet some kind of Harden-esque ideal. It's simply not fair to him. 27/5/3.9 on 55%TS is pretty outstanding. Here is a list of players who have notched those marks for a season since the year 2000:

Kobe
Curry
KD
Harden
LeBron
TMac
DWade

A total of 25 times in 17 years (DeMar had the 26th). Yes, his style of play may not be ideal, and it may be frustrating to watch our offense send him into contested lanes over and over again, but he is deceptively effective. What's more, I believe his style of play has partly evolved to adapt to his weaknesses; with a mediocre first step and a lack of flashy handles, he has to rely on footwork and shiftiness to get buckets and break down defences.

And even then that's just a theory. We can't be sure how much of this play style is due to "hell or high water" "ride or die" "this is not a democracy offensively" Dwane Casey.

But I don't think it's his attitude/mentality that's the problem as much as he is simply incapable of being what we often wish him to be: a true 1A superstar. That's not his fault, and it's also not his fault that that's how he's paid. I hope he proves me wrong, and reaches another level, but I can't really ask for much more than what he gave us last season.

Agree with pretty much everything you said. I think where DeMar gets himself into trouble is when he starts talking like he's a 1A superstar. Comments along the lines of being "unstoppable" on offence, or being able to get to the bucket "at will" makes it sound like he thinks of himself as a superstar (which he does). Then he goes out and plays what has often been labelled a selfish brand of basketball which further reinforces the idea that he is a superstar. That's all good through the regular season, but he's yet to be the best player on the floor when it matters most in the playoffs. That's what everyone thinks of when they think superstar and what he's yet to deliver on. He probably never will be able to deliver on it, but you wouldn't know by listening to him.

[Chr1s1anL]

Agree with pretty much everything you said. I think where DeMar gets himself into trouble is when he starts talking like he's a 1A superstar. Comments along the lines of being "unstoppable" on offence, or being able to get to the bucket "at will" makes it sound like he thinks of himself as a superstar (which he does). Then he goes out and plays what has often been labelled a selfish brand of basketball which further reinforces the idea that he is a superstar. That's all good through the regular season, but he's yet to be the best player on the floor when it matters most in the playoffs. That's what everyone thinks of when they think superstar and what he's yet to deliver on. He probably never will be able to deliver on it, but you wouldn't know by listening to him.

Looked like the best player on the floor in this game

https://youtu.be/oHCxevcYQOc

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

[Chr1s1anL]

This game as well

https://youtu.be/0SPVncN6wRw

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Agree with pretty much everything you said. I think where DeMar gets himself into trouble is when he starts talking like he's a 1A superstar. Comments along the lines of being "unstoppable" on offence, or being able to get to the bucket "at will" makes it sound like he thinks of himself as a superstar (which he does). Then he goes out and plays what has often been labelled a selfish brand of basketball which further reinforces the idea that he is a superstar. That's all good through the regular season, but he's yet to be the best player on the floor when it matters most in the playoffs. That's what everyone thinks of when they think superstar and what he's yet to deliver on. He probably never will be able to deliver on it, but you wouldn't know by listening to him.

Sorry, but it'd be more problematic for me if DeMar didn't think he was unstoppable on offence. Clearly he's not, but you need that mentality to be successful.

It gets him into trouble when it comes to taking very bad shots a lot of the time, but I'd prefer that attitude to what Lowry does where he completely loses confidence in his ability to play basketball. If Lowry had DeMar's mentality, this team would have a lot easier go of it in the playoffs. Sometimes you have to be overconfident to be mentally tough.

[Scraptor]

I'd be more than happy to see DeMar's individual numbers go down if that means more ball movement and better decision-making to optimize more of the other players. There was a like a 3-4 game stretch after Lowry got injured, where DeMar and JV were developing some nice PnR chemistry - DD actually hitting the rolling big in traffic. And the team was finding Carroll cutting to the basket. This was all predicated on DeMar moving the ball and giving it up early.

That's one of my biggest issues. Casey has skewed to offense to such an extreme level to compensate for DeMar's lack of pace & space that it precludes running other types of high percentage basketball plays in favor of opening up driving seams for DeMar. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big DeRozan fan and am thrilled that he's exceeded all expectations; but he's a challenging piece to build around in the modern pace & space NBA. The Raps strength is their depth and without a Lebron type, we need to get more production out of role players and I don't think the Ride or Die style of play does that. Everybody (including me) dumped on DeMarre Carroll for being salty, but that was basically his main point.

Oh I agree 100% that we need a more balanced attack. But I also think that the offence we have has as much to do with Dwane Casey and Masai Ujiri as it does with DeMar.

If we wanted JV involved, Casey should have been fired years ago. But if we were going to operate under the premise that Casey was staying long-term, then JV should have been moved when he had value for a legitimate piece that could have helped balance the attack. DeMar and Kyle would accomodate a legit third option. The failure to acquire one (through five offseasons) is on Masai.

My overall point is that the criticism and blame isn't fairly apportioned. DeMar gets 1000 pages of drama and yet we have known for many seasons who he is. Meanwhile the architect who retained our coach and constructed the roster is hardly ever called into question (at least not until very recently).

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Oh I agree 100% that we need a more balanced attack. But I also think that the offence we have has as much to do with Dwane Casey and Masai Ujiri as it does with DeMar.

If we wanted JV involved, Casey should have been fired years ago. But if we were going to operate under the premise that Casey was staying long-term, then JV should have been moved when he had value for a legitimate piece that could have helped balance the attack. DeMar and Kyle would accomodate a legit third option. The failure to acquire one (through five offseasons) is on Masai.

My overall point is that the criticism and blame isn't fairly apportioned. DeMar gets 1000 pages of drama and yet we have known for many seasons who he is. Meanwhile the architect who retained our coach and constructed the roster is hardly ever called into question (at least not until very recently).

I like Masai and I've been saying this all summer. While he has easily been the best GM in franchise history, he has made some mistakes and been overly loyal to Casey imo. Plus now I think his hands are being tied by MLSE when it comes to spending hence all the money-saving moves/lack of moves this offseason. Retained the guys we need to get our ~47-55 wins (Lowry, Ibaka, DD) but didn't push for anything beyond that and shed salary.