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  • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    Yeah it's the problem I have. Are we talking about who can fit better and make marginal contributions on more teams? Well yeah, DeRozan's not going to win that battle. DeRozan's in the high usage group of star players who are expected to produce big on a nightly basis for their teams. Obviously if you have multiple players in that group who are better than DeRozan on your team, it makes more sense to have a role player next to them than him. However in terms of who is more capable and skilled as a basketball player, that would be DeRozan.

    People have gotten so obsessed with certain advanced stats that they can't think or rationalize clearly (I say this as someone who is a huge proponent of using advanced stats to analyze the game). At the end of the day, what are we really ranking? Are we ranking the best players in the league, or the guys who fit best on more teams?
    Great post.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
      Yeah it's the problem I have. Are we talking about who can fit better and make marginal contributions on more teams? Well yeah, DeRozan's not going to win that battle. DeRozan's in the high usage group of star players who are expected to produce big on a nightly basis for their teams. Obviously if you have multiple players in that group who are better than DeRozan on your team, it makes more sense to have a role player next to them than him. However in terms of who is more capable and skilled as a basketball player, that would be DeRozan.

      People have gotten so obsessed with certain advanced stats that they can't think or rationalize clearly (I say this as someone who is a huge proponent of using advanced stats to analyze the game). At the end of the day, what are we really ranking? Are we ranking the best players in the league, or the guys who fit best on more teams?
      The flip side to this would be to think about being a GM building a team from scratch. Would you prefer DeRozan, a one-dimensional player who needs to have a delicately structured team built around him to be successful, or would you prefer another SG who may not be as good head-to-head, but would plug-and-play into more lineups?

      It's not an easy answer. On one hand, you take the better player. On the other hand, could you build a better overall team if you weren't trying to account for a key player's glaring weaknesses?

      The Raptors don't work without DeRozan, precisely because they were built with Lowry/DeRozan as the focal points. If I were building a team I think there are many SGs I'd prefer, since I could get more balanced scoring far more efficiently from other positions. I don't think it's a trend or media hype, but rather thinking about how to maximize the output of an entire team - DeRozan requires specific players to cover his weaknesses, and doesn't really do a lot to make his teammates better.

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      • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
        The flip side to this would be to think about being a GM building a team from scratch. Would you prefer DeRozan, a one-dimensional player who needs to have a delicately structured team built around him to be successful, or would you prefer another SG who may not be as good head-to-head, but would plug-and-play into more lineups?

        It's not an easy answer. On one hand, you take the better player. On the other hand, could you build a better overall team if you weren't trying to account for a key player's glaring weaknesses?

        The Raptors don't work without DeRozan, precisely because they were built with Lowry/DeRozan as the focal points. If I were building a team I think there are many SGs I'd prefer, since I could get more balanced scoring far more efficiently from other positions. I don't think it's a trend or media hype, but rather thinking about how to maximize the output of an entire team - DeRozan requires specific players to cover his weaknesses, and doesn't really do a lot to make his teammates better.
        We're not talking about team building. We're debating DeRozan's ranking in the league. You just said he's the better player so that's it. I think you missed my earlier point where I already addressed that guys like Middleton fit better on more teams. DeRozan is a high usage star scorer. If you have 2+ players who can do that better than him then he's not needed on your team.

        He's a better basketball player than someone like Middleton or other guys who are just 3+D players. You act like these guys don't have weaknesses. They do. They can't create shots. Shot creation is highly important in the NBA. You need guys who can attack defenses, put pressure on them and open up the floor for other players. You replace DeRozan with someone like that and we're left with 1 legitimate creator in Lowry.

        What you're suggesting is effectively just doing what Houston did last year except having Lowry instead of Harden. Doesn't raise the ceiling of the team at all.

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        • On the other hand, there are plenty of rangy 3&D guys (precisely like Middleton) that DeMar would fit exceptionally well alongside, it's just us that has had them in short supply. It's really just the Rudy Gays and the Carmelos that you'd probably want to avoid when it comes to team-building with DeMar. And you're probably going to want a point guard that can shoot it, which isn't much to ask in today's league.

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          • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
            We're not talking about team building. We're debating DeRozan's ranking in the league. You just said he's the better player so that's it. I think you missed my earlier point where I already addressed that guys like Middleton fit better on more teams. DeRozan is a high usage star scorer. If you have 2+ players who can do that better than him then he's not needed on your team.

            He's a better basketball player than someone like Middleton or other guys who are just 3+D players. You act like these guys don't have weaknesses. They do. They can't create shots. Shot creation is highly important in the NBA. You need guys who can attack defenses, put pressure on them and open up the floor for other players. You replace DeRozan with someone like that and we're left with 1 legitimate creator in Lowry.

            What you're suggesting is effectively just doing what Houston did last year except having Lowry instead of Harden. Doesn't raise the ceiling of the team at all.
            I think you also need to separate this debate into regular season DD/Lowry vs. playoff DD/Lowry. If DeMar can only create his own shot with great efficiency during the regular season but can't do it in the playoffs, then the gap between his value and Middleton shrinks significantly when you also consider Middleton's defense. Same issue with Lowry.

            I feel like ESPN and those ranking sites might be placing a high value on playoffs where the media exposure is magnified and player reputations are made. Fair or not, DD & Lowry are getting a reputation for consistently under-performing when the lights shine brightest.

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            • https://nbamath.com/an-nba-riddle-ma...visive-status/

              Last season, there was an NBA player who had:

              More points than sharp-shooting Stephen Curry
              More rebounds than motor-man Amir Johnson
              More assists than offensive-initiator Tony Parker
              More steals than defensive force Andre Iguodala
              This sounds like the perfect player, right? A jack of all trades who you can plug at any position. Maybe someone like LeBron James or Kawhi Leonard.

              Well, it’s not.

              It’s DeMar DeRozan.
              Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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              • golden wrote: View Post
                I think you also need to separate this debate into regular season DD/Lowry vs. playoff DD/Lowry. If DeMar can only create his own shot with great efficiency during the regular season but can't do it in the playoffs, then the gap between his value and Middleton shrinks significantly when you also consider Middleton's defense. Same issue with Lowry.

                I feel like ESPN and those ranking sites might be placing a high value on playoffs where the media exposure is magnified and player reputations are made. Fair or not, DD & Lowry are getting a reputation for consistently under-performing when the lights shine brightest.
                The irony of this is that DeRozan literally beat Middleton 1 on 1 for a series clinching shot right after he turned the ball over on the other end.

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                • golden wrote: View Post
                  I think you also need to separate this debate into regular season DD/Lowry vs. playoff DD/Lowry. If DeMar can only create his own shot with great efficiency during the regular season but can't do it in the playoffs, then the gap between his value and Middleton shrinks significantly when you also consider Middleton's defense. Same issue with Lowry.

                  I feel like ESPN and those ranking sites might be placing a high value on playoffs where the media exposure is magnified and player reputations are made. Fair or not, DD & Lowry are getting a reputation for consistently under-performing when the lights shine brightest.
                  I think it's important to remember that both DeMar and Lowry, and the Raptors in general, need Lowry's shooting stroke to be bang on in the playoffs especially, and due to injury more than anything, that just hasn't been there these last two post-seasons.

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                  • This is actually a really good look at both sides of the DeRozan argument. Nice article, even though I'm not a fan of their points added/saved statistic.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • DanH wrote: View Post
                      This is actually a really good look at both sides of the DeRozan argument. Nice article, even though I'm not a fan of their points added/saved statistic.
                      What is that stat even trying to prove?
                      I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.

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                      • DanH wrote: View Post
                        This is actually a really good look at both sides of the DeRozan argument. Nice article, even though I'm not a fan of their points added/saved statistic.
                        It's crazy how BAD Demar plays in the playoffs. And it's not like it's just one playoffs, it's been that way for like the last 3 years. The fact that we even make it to the second round or further is beyond me when we rely on him so much.
                        I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.

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                        • GLF wrote: View Post
                          What is that stat even trying to prove?
                          It's a player value stat, measuring offensive and defensive value. Like WS, and ORTG/DRTG, and ORPM and DRPM. It's just their own formula.
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                          • DanH wrote: View Post
                            It's a player value stat, measuring offensive and defensive value. Like WS, and ORTG/DRTG, and ORPM and DRPM. It's just their own formula.
                            I see.
                            I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.

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                            • Underrated aspect of Kyle and DeMar's overall poor playoff numbers is the fact that they tend to shoot like complete shit in losses then pull it together enough for wins. As long as they pull it together at least 4 times in a series, you're golden.

                              I'm definitely going to talk myself into this in the spring.
                              "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                              • S.R. wrote: View Post
                                Underrated aspect of Kyle and DeMar's overall poor playoff numbers is the fact that they tend to shoot like complete shit in losses then pull it together enough for wins. As long as they pull it together at least 4 times in a series, you're golden.

                                I'm definitely going to talk myself into this in the spring.
                                Fair point lol....

                                I guess averages sort of matter less in the playoffs. If they can boom 1 more time than they bust each series we're golden lol

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