Everything Derozan

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Fair point lol....

I guess averages sort of matter less in the playoffs. If they can boom 1 more time than they bust each series we're golden lol

I don't mean to derail the thread, since there are a couple threads where this conversation would be more appropriately had, but the point you made is precisely why it's baffling to me that Casey doesn't spend time in the regular season try to establish alternate offensive game-plans. During those 'bust' games in the playoffs, the Raptors look completely lost and have no other options for finding sustainable scoring. Perhaps if you gave other players not named DeRozan or Lowry opportunities to establish themselves as a lower-tier scoring option (aka actually run plays for them to score), it would benefit the team come playoff time?

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I don't mean to derail the thread, since there are a couple threads where this conversation would be more appropriately had, but the point you made is precisely why it's baffling to me that Casey doesn't spend time in the regular season try to establish alternate offensive game-plans. During those 'bust' games in the playoffs, the Raptors look completely lost and have no other options for finding sustainable scoring. Perhaps if you gave other players not named DeRozan or Lowry opportunities to establish themselves as a lower-tier scoring option (aka actually run plays for them to score), it would benefit the team come playoff time?

I absolutely agree, have a huge problem with Casey on this end too. We're one dimensional and highly reactive in the playoffs.

It's why I think this team would get a lot better if we got a player with a lot of cache in the post to give us a different look like Marc Gasol. They'd HAVE to run plays for him, and as a result that'd give us a more diversified attack.

[golden]

I don't mean to derail the thread, since there are a couple threads where this conversation would be more appropriately had, but the point you made is precisely why it's baffling to me that Casey doesn't spend time in the regular season try to establish alternate offensive game-plans. During those 'bust' games in the playoffs, the Raptors look completely lost and have no other options for finding sustainable scoring. Perhaps if you gave other players not named DeRozan or Lowry opportunities to establish themselves as a lower-tier scoring option (aka actually run plays for them to score), it would benefit the team come playoff time?

When it comes to hiring and firing, coaches are mostly graded on their regular season W-L record because GMs who are looking for coaches are typically from teams who don't make the playoffs.

So if you are Casey, why risk losing 5-10 more games a seasons testing out new stuff when you know that you can get an easy 45 wins a year keeping things exactly the way they are? Especially when the casual fans, MLSE, media, etc... are pretty happy just making the playoffs every year. If Casey's out of a job, there will be GMs from lower tier teams more than willing to hire a coach with Casey's W-L record who is a low-ego guy that is easy to work with.

Same applies to Kyle and DeMar, who have been given the keys to offense. The regular season style of play has gotten them multiple all-star appearances and $25M/yr+ annual salaries. Why mess with that? There's always some way to explain a playoff collapse and the casual fans have short memories about those type of things.

[Axel]

We're not talking about team building. We're debating DeRozan's ranking in the league. You just said he's the better player so that's it. I think you missed my earlier point where I already addressed that guys like Middleton fit better on more teams.

But we are talking about a team game, so a fit with other players on teams should be part of the evaluation. It's one of the reasons why Melo got such a bad rap for years despite his gaudy numbers; his style necessitated the ball in his hands, he didn't pass or create for others and didn't defend.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

But we are talking about a team game, so a fit with other players on teams should be part of the evaluation. It's one of the reasons why Melo got such a bad rap for years despite his gaudy numbers; his style necessitated the ball in his hands, he didn't pass or create for others and didn't defend.

I disagree. If that's the case LeBron should not be considered the best player in the NBA. Because Kawhi, KD and Curry are all superior shooters and can play off ball better with other stars, then they would all be ranked ahead of him.

[Axel]

I disagree. If that's the case LeBron should not be considered the best player in the NBA. Because Kawhi, KD and Curry are all superior shooters and can play off ball better with other stars, then they would all be ranked ahead of him.

Ridiculous. LeBron makes every player around him better. Completely asinine.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Ridiculous. LeBron makes every player around him better. Completely asinine.

It's actually not ridiculous or asinine.

Curry, Durant and Kawhi make players around them better also. Again, if you're incorporating "fit" into your evaluation of who the better player is, those guys can fit better with other stars because they can play off ball effectively. If that's the one knock on LeBron's game it's that he needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Now he is absolutely godly with the ball in his hands and elevates the play of others, but those guys ability to play without the ball (KD and Kawhi are also better defenders than LeBron is now) would make them better players by your standard, which clearly makes no sense since LeBron is the best player in the league (although I suspect SI/ESPN will rank him 2nd this year).

Fit doesn't go into who the better basketball player is. Fit is something you take into account when talking about how to put your team together, not ranking player's abilities.

[KHD]

It's actually not ridiculous or asinine.

Curry, Durant and Kawhi make players around them better also. Again, if you're incorporating "fit" into your evaluation of who the better player is, those guys can fit better with other stars because they can play off ball effectively. If that's the one knock on LeBron's game it's that he needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Now he is absolutely godly with the ball in his hands and elevates the play of others, but those guys ability to play without the ball (KD and Kawhi are also better defenders than LeBron is now) would make them better players by your standard, which clearly makes no sense since LeBron is the best player in the league (although I suspect SI/ESPN will rank him 2nd this year).

Fit doesn't go into who the better basketball player is. Fit is something you take into account when talking about how to put your team together, not ranking player's abilities.

lebron is better than curry and kawhi (and probably still durant), that's why you rank him above them. that doesn't mean that you ignore fit and/or the ability to play a team game in your rankings.

Like, where do you rank Draymond Green under your logic? because he's pretty much one of the best players in the NBA entirely because of the team-oriented game he plays.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

lebron is better than curry and kawhi (and probably still durant), that's why you rank him above them. that doesn't mean that you ignore fit and/or the ability to play a team game in your rankings.

Like, where do you rank Draymond Green under your logic? because he's pretty much one of the best players in the NBA entirely because of the team-oriented game he plays.

No Draymond Green is one of the best players in the NBA because of how good he is, not because of his fit. He's the best or 2nd best defender in the league, while being able to guard 1-5. Probably a top 5 passing bigman, excellent rebounder and can score when needed as well.

[Chr1s1anL]

No Draymond Green is one of the best players in the NBA because of how good he is, not because of his fit. He's the best or 2nd best defender in the league, while being able to guard 1-5. Probably a top 5 passing bigman, excellent rebounder and can score when needed as well.

Can't really create his own shot. Benefits a lot by the situation he is in. I don't think a team with Draymond as their best player is that good.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

[Axel]

It's actually not ridiculous or asinine.

Curry, Durant and Kawhi make players around them better also. Again, if you're incorporating "fit" into your evaluation of who the better player is, those guys can fit better with other stars because they can play off ball effectively. If that's the one knock on LeBron's game it's that he needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Now he is absolutely godly with the ball in his hands and elevates the play of others, but those guys ability to play without the ball (KD and Kawhi are also better defenders than LeBron is now) would make them better players by your standard, which clearly makes no sense since LeBron is the best player in the league (although I suspect SI/ESPN will rank him 2nd this year).

Fit doesn't go into who the better basketball player is. Fit is something you take into account when talking about how to put your team together, not ranking player's abilities.

It is completely ridiculous; not the ranking but applying the logic that a fundamentally flawed (one dimensional) player struggling in the team aspect of the game and applying it to one of the truly elite players, who has a long track record and proven history of not only performing at a high level but also elevating the game of his teammates. Curry, Durant, Leonard, and LeBron - all of them are elite. DeRozan and Melo are not in their stratosphere and have legit flaws in their game that appears to hinder their success in the TEAM game. LeBron, Curry, Leonard and Durant do not have those same flaws; while they have different strengths and weaknesses they all perform at such a high level that it doesn't matter what team they are on; therefore there are no concerns regarding fit into the team game.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

It is completely ridiculous; not the ranking but applying the logic that a fundamentally flawed (one dimensional) player struggling in the team aspect of the game and applying it to one of the truly elite players, who has a long track record and proven history of not only performing at a high level but also elevating the game of his teammates. Curry, Durant, Leonard, and LeBron - all of them are elite. DeRozan and Melo are not in their stratosphere and have legit flaws in their game that appears to hinder their success in the TEAM game. LeBron, Curry, Leonard and Durant do not have those same flaws; while they have different strengths and weaknesses they all perform at such a high level that it doesn't matter what team they are on; therefore there are no concerns regarding fit into the team game.

Actually, no, it's not ridiculous.

You're just dodging the point that was made. The reality is it DOES matter what team those guys are on, especially for LeBron. He is a better basketball player than the other 3, but in terms of ability to fit into other teams or systems, LeBron would be a distant 4th. Every team LeBron goes to has the offense revolve entirely around him (and for good reason, he's that good), but if you really think he would be able to just plug and play in the Warriors offense for example the way Durant did (or Kawhi easily could've) then you're the one who's being "ridiculous".

Again there's an overvaluing of fit in this context, it has nothing to do with how good a player actually is. Fit is a team building concept not an individual player evaluation concept. DeRozan is better than guys that just 3+D. If you're talking about players with big roles like his who can ALSO shoot and defend better than him, then clearly those players are better. But no, the Khris Middletons, Danny Greens, Jae Crowders of the world are not better players than DeRozan by any stretch of the fucking imagination.

[KeonClark]

DeMar is not suited to be a 3 and d analytics wet dream, he's doesn't have the skill set.

But Middleton and Crowder are DEFINITELY not suited to be leading scorers on a 50 win team, which is a much more rare and coveted skill set, and every good team needs it. If DeMar was so expendable, 27 point per game players would grow in trees. But they don't, and they usually get max deals. Sports illustrated (and all media)is over thinking themselves these days. DeMar is certainly flawed, and the scorers with more all around games rank higher. But he's a top 30 player. These nerds should take a poll of the general managers and players. Those people know how hard demars job is

[Axel]

DeMar is not suited to be a 3 and d analytics wet dream, he's doesn't have the skill set.

But Middleton and Crowder are DEFINITELY not suited to be leading scorers on a 50 win team, which is a much more rare and coveted skill set, and every good team needs it. If DeMar was so expendable, 27 point per game players would grow in trees. But they don't, and they usually get max deals. Sports illustrated (and all media)is over thinking themselves these days. DeMar is certainly flawed, and the scorers with more all around games rank higher. But he's a top 30 player. These nerds should take a poll of the general managers and players. Those people know how hard demars job is

Crowder no, but Middleton above Demar doesn't bother me. He's a skilled player who's versatile and plays good defence.

Basketball is a team game and it's pointless to simply compare players as if it's 1-on-1 down at the Y. Larger context and DEFENCE are both huge knocks on Demar which would fairly limit his ranking. It seems like people are so determined to complain about the media rankings that they are willing to completely dismiss every reasonable criticism so that they can finally be left with either "the media is out to get us" or "the media doesn't know what they are talking about".

The league has had tons of skilled scorers over the years, it's easier to find someone to score than to find two-way players.

Why is it that we demand our Centers to be versatile enough to defend the rim and on the perimeter but he don't expect Demar to be hindered by his lack of versatility or flexibility? A one position scorer who can't defend - great specific skill set but ultimately a more limited player than a good two-way player.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Crowder no, but Middleton above Demar doesn't bother me. He's a skilled player who's versatile and plays good defence.

Basketball is a team game and it's pointless to simply compare players as if it's 1-on-1 down at the Y. Larger context and DEFENCE are both huge knocks on Demar which would fairly limit his ranking. It seems like people are so determined to complain about the media rankings that they are willing to completely dismiss every reasonable criticism so that they can finally be left with either "the media is out to get us" or "the media doesn't know what they are talking about".

The league has had tons of skilled scorers over the years, it's easier to find someone to score than to find two-way players.

Why is it that we demand our Centers to be versatile enough to defend the rim and on the perimeter but he don't expect Demar to be hindered by his lack of versatility or flexibility? A one position scorer who can't defend - great specific skill set but ultimately a more limited player than a good two-way player.

People aren't determined to complain about the media rankings. People have an issue with guys in marginal roles being ranked ahead of guys who can play efficiently and produce big in much larger ones.

The league has also had WAY MORE guys who can spot up and shoot and play some D over the years than guys who are capable of giving you close to 25-5-5 and a 110 oRTG every night, and that's even taking into consideration the fact that the 3-ball only became something that teams used with high frequency in the last 10+ years or so.

Nobody is saying the media is out to get us. The ranking is wrong. And to your last point, the reason why defending becomes a bigger priority for centers is because they are your last line of defence and integral to it being successful. They constantly get involved in pick and rolls where they have to switch onto the guard or prevent a skilled big from rolling to the rim or popping out for a three.

You have to accept reality. It is easier to hide a defensively weak guard or wing than it is a defensively weak big man. This is a consistent trend we've seen among teams in the league, even title winning teams. They'll regularly have a guard or wing who doesn't defend particularly well but it doesn't really hinder their success. You'll be much harder pressed to find championship level teams with a poor defensive center because of how important they are to your defense. A guy who's just guarding a 3+D role player, even if he isn't a good defender, isn't going to hurt you that much, and that's typically what DeMar is doing.

It only really becomes an issue when you play with multiple poor defensive wings and have no one to guard the top wing player on the other team.

Nobody's said anything about the media being against us. We just objectively think the ranking is wrong.