Everything Derozan

[golden]

This appears to be where we have a disconnect. You believe the raptors made derozan simply by giving him shots. Again if it was so easy, shouldn't all 30 teams be able to have a 27 ppg scorer? Just give your guard 20 shots and voila?

Surprisingly, there is an eerily similar comparable player to DeMar.... Monta Ellis.

Early on, the offense was built around Ellis at GSW he scored 20ppg+ on low efficiency. A talented PG (Steph Curry) arrived to take some of the scoring attention of him and Monta upped his PPG to 25.5ppg on very good efficiency (107 ORTG). Klay Thompson arrived making Ellis expendable his PPG went down, becoming a journeyman on multiple teams with those offenses not being built around him.

In an alternate universe where GSW doesn't draft Klay Thompson and continues to build around Steph Curry and Monta Ellis, that backcourt looks a lot like Lowry and DeRozan from a scoring skills standpoint, doesn't it?

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Surprisingly, there is an eerily similar comparable player to DeMar.... Monta Ellis.

Early on, the offense was built around Ellis at GSW he scored 20ppg+ on low efficiency. A talented PG (Steph Curry) arrived to take some of the scoring attention of him and Monta upped his PPG to 25.5ppg on very good efficiency (107 ORTG). Klay Thompson arrived making Ellis expendable his PPG went down, becoming a journeyman on multiple teams with those offenses not being built around him.

In an alternate universe where GSW doesn't draft Klay Thompson and continues to build around Steph Curry and Monta Ellis, that backcourt looks a lot like Lowry and DeRozan from a scoring skills standpoint, doesn't it?

Gotta be very careful with that comparison. Ellis was barely even adding win shares at just .023 WS/48 in the season you're referring to compared to DeMar's .166 WS/48 last year. Also below average efficiency at 51.7 TS% compared to DeMar's 55.0 TS%. There's also a big difference between 107 oRTG and 113 oRTG. Plus DeMar handled a higher usage (35% compared to 30%) while still outproducing him in all these areas.

[ogi]

Gotta be very careful with that comparison. Ellis was barely even adding win shares at just .023 WS/48 in the season you're referring to compared to DeMar's .166 WS/48 last year. Also below average efficiency at 51.7 TS% compared to DeMar's 55.0 TS%. There's also a big difference between 107 oRTG and 113 oRTG. Plus DeMar handled a higher usage (35% compared to 30%) while still outproducing him in all these areas.

Not to mention a better ast to tov percentage ratio and a better rebounding percentage.

If anything monta Ellis is a good example of what happens when you forcefully increase a player's usage who isn't good enough to handle it.

[Axel]

Than it should be called top 100 players who would fit on any team. Instead of being called top 100 players. No, GM or Coach would pick Middleton over Deebo.

Or you post a full page explanation of the exercise and expect people to read it before they start blasting the results without knowing the criteria....

[golden]

Gotta be very careful with that comparison. Ellis was barely even adding win shares at just .023 WS/48 in the season you're referring to compared to DeMar's .166 WS/48 last year. Also below average efficiency at 51.7 TS% compared to DeMar's 55.0 TS%. There's also a big difference between 107 oRTG and 113 oRTG. Plus DeMar handled a higher usage (35% compared to 30%) while still outproducing him in all these areas.

No doubt DeMar is better than Ellis. I especially know that because I was probably the first poster on here to point out that DeMar had morphed into an elite scorer (> 110 ORTG / 25% USG) 4 or so years ago (caveat: league average ORTG was a very high 108.8 last season). But this isn't a DeMar = Monta sidebar discussion.

I was responding to the question that Keon asked... you actually can force feed scoring opportunities to an above average guard and he can get you almost 26PPG per night on above average efficiency. So, system and opportunity can't be completely discounted to the player's success, which is the case of both Ellis and DeMar.

[Chr1s1anL]

Or you post a full page explanation of the exercise and expect people to read it before they start blasting the results without knowing the criteria....

I read the whole post. I was the one who first posted that ranking in this thread. Still doesn't excuse the ranking. You can think Middleton is better than Deebo all you want. Your wrong but, it's your opinion.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

[Shaolin Fantastic]

No doubt DeMar is better than Ellis. I especially know that because I was probably the first poster on here to point out that DeMar had morphed into an elite scorer (> 110 ORTG / 25% USG) 4 or so years ago (caveat: league average ORTG was a very high 108.8 last season). But this isn't a DeMar = Monta sidebar discussion.

I was responding to the question that Keon asked... you actually can force feed scoring opportunities to an above average guard and he can get you almost 26PPG per night on above average efficiency. So, system and opportunity can't be completely discounted to the player's success, which is the case of both Ellis and DeMar.

His efficiency was below average.

And his production was not nearly as good. It's a terrible example.

[golden]

His efficiency was below average.

And his production was not nearly as good. It's a terrible example.

Anybody who scores over 25 PPG is an elite producer by any NBA metric, so you might not like the analogy that you can force feed a player extra possessions and build your offense around him and turn him into a > 25PPG producer, but it actually happened. I think you're getting caught up into the 'who is better?' sidebar strawman, when that answer is clearly DeMar.

[Mess]

Well, Monta only scored over 25 ppg in one season in which he played 41.4 mpg game (league leader - and also the highest mpg since 07-08 Iverson. It's been trending downwards ever since). So he was forcefed a lot of things.



And we've had nothing going on but sidebar strawmans for like the past 2 months.

[DanH]

Anybody who scores over 25 PPG is an elite producer by any NBA metric, so you might not like the analogy that you can force feed a player extra possessions and build your offense around him and turn him into a > 25PPG producer, but it actually happened. I think you're getting caught up into the 'who is better?' sidebar strawman, when that answer is clearly DeMar.

Actually, Monta is a great example of how you can score 25 PPG while not being a great producer at all. His WS/48 was an abysmal .023 in 2019-10, and he put up only a 16 PER in spite of scoring in volume. Those are the two most widely used raw production metrics, and both graded him out as average or worse that season.

[golden]

Actually, Monta is a great example of how you can score 25 PPG while not being a great producer at all. His WS/48 was an abysmal .023 in 2019-10, and he put up only a 16 PER in spite of scoring in volume. Those are the two most widely used raw production metrics, and both graded him out as average or worse that season.

I guess we're splitting hairs on the word "producer", which I'm using in the context of raw points rather than WP, WS, PER, ORTG, etc... But if Shaolin and DanH are united against my example, then I guess I've got to take a mulligan on this one. lol.

But it actually does prove the original example. You can actually force feed a volume scorer 20+ shots per night and he can put up 25+ ppg. And Monta did have a year of 117 ORTG and .140 WS earlier in his career at lower USG.

[KeonClark]

Actually, Monta is a great example of how you can score 25 PPG while not being a great producer at all. His WS/48 was an abysmal .023 in 2019-10, and he put up only a 16 PER in spite of scoring in volume. Those are the two most widely used raw production metrics, and both graded him out as average or worse that season.

And let's not forget the most basic but important stat of all: his team won 26 games.

[DanH]

I guess we're splitting hairs on the word "producer", which I'm using in the context of raw points rather than WP, WS, PER, ORTG, etc... But if Shaolin and DanH are united against my example, then I guess I've got to take a mulligan on this one. lol.

But it actually does prove the original example. You can actually force feed a volume scorer 20+ shots per night and he can put up 25+ ppg. And Monta did have a year of 117 ORTG and .140 WS earlier in his career at lower USG.

Well, you did say "by any metric." Seemed to invite more than one metric.

But yeah. I think I agree with that point, but it illustrates the larger point as well. Not everyone can pump out those 25 PPG and actually be a useful producer. DeRozan does - he carries the offence with enough efficiency and does enough other than score to grade out as a good producer, while force feeding any old schmuck, even a guy considered a scorer like Monta, who had success in a lower usage role, can lead to empty point totals but not actual good production.

So while DeRozan's success is definitely dependent on the Raptors giving him all those touches, teams can't just give those touches to any player and expect them to be able to produce like DeMar does, let alone providing better defence at the same time. Players have limits to their games, and offensively at least, most players' limits fall well short of DeRozan's ability to carry usage. It's part and parcel with why it's hard to compare him to other players, and why he'd be far less valuable as a complementary player than a lesser player who can't do what DeRozan does, but does other things better, like shoot and defend.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Anybody who scores over 25 PPG is an elite producer by any NBA metric, so you might not like the analogy that you can force feed a player extra possessions and build your offense around him and turn him into a > 25PPG producer, but it actually happened. I think you're getting caught up into the 'who is better?' sidebar strawman, when that answer is clearly DeMar.

I'm not caught up in anything actually, you're making an irrelevant point.

First of all, Ellis is a scorer by nature, that's his skillset. So naturally if he shoots more shots he's going to score more. I'm not sure with 3+D role player's skillset you could get up 20 shots a game, so no just because Ellis did it doesn't mean anybody can score 25ppg.

Secondly, the point is that DeMar doesn't JUST score 25ppg, he does so efficiently. It's a DeRozan thread, so talking about some abstract of chucking your way to 25ppg is irrelevant, that's not what he does.

[DanH]

I'm not caught up in anything actually, you're making an irrelevant point.

First of all, Ellis is a scorer by nature, that's his skillset. So naturally if he shoots more shots he's going to score more. I'm not sure with 3+D role player's skillset you could get up 20 shots a game, so no just because Ellis did it doesn't mean anybody can score 25ppg.

Secondly, the point is that DeMar doesn't JUST score 25ppg, he does so efficiently. It's a DeRozan thread, so talking about some abstract of chucking your way to 25ppg is irrelevant, that's not what he does.

It's a perfectly fair description of, say, his 2014-15 season, or his early seasons (obviously not 25 PPG, but still), but over the past two years he definitely doesn't fall into that category.