Everything Derozan

[KeonClark]

I just want to say I'm usually a massive supporter of Demar Derozan. But I do think we're introducing a bit of false equivalence with statements like DeMar DeRozan is the kind of guy you want to start your franchise. I think that's fine if you're aiming for your franchise to be the Raptors - a good 50 win team who gets 2-3 rounds into the playoffs each year but isn't a serious competitor for the championship unless something goes wrong.

But if you look at championship teams, wouldn't you say that Khris Middleton would fit into one of those better than DeMar? DeMar really only has value as a first or second option, and when it comes down to it he's not Kawhi Leonard or James Harden or Durant or Curry or has that level of efficiency that volume scorers on the championship teams do. And that's fine, there's only about 10 of those in the league and to win a championship in today's NBA you basically need 2 of them.

The reason that Demar gets a bad rap compared to these role players is that the role players add value to championship level teams as a 3rd or 4th option on offense without taking away from the defense. Demar does not.

Basically if you're aiming to be a good team, you can't have Middleton or Crowder in the DeMar role and expect to win 50 games. Demar is a great player and has that capability to lift his team in that fashion.

But if you're aiming to be a great championship team, you can't exactly have Demar in the Crowder/Middleton role either or your team is not nearly as good. And if you put DeMar in his normal role, then he just doesn't have that efficiency to give your team that championship ceiling.

That is the Demar issue, and that's why he has his strong detractors. I love him on the Raptors and I love what he's been able to do for this franchise. But the Raptors are the Raptors and not the Warriors for a reason.

So we're punishing Derozan because he's in the 2nd tier of team leading scorers? Middleton is not in any tier of team leading scorers. Without Giannis the Bucks would have been a lottery team, likely a very bad team. Without Lowry, the Raptors are still around .500 and in the playoffs, I think that's safe to say based on evidence. We keep moving the goalposts, now it's "which player best adds value as 3rd or 4th option on a champion". What? These rankings are, simply put, the "best players in the NBA" Full stop. Coaches pick Demar every year. Players pick Demar. GMs pick Demar. The only guys who seem to not are the bloggers so bogged down in spreadsheets they miss the forest through the trees. Middleton is the type of player who can hide for stretches of games and seasons, let Giannis do the work, or other guys, and the team may not miss a beat. Demar has a job that the team relies on, a job that 90% of the players in the league would buckle under and fail trying to perform for 82 games

[SkywalkerAC]

A championship team might have DeMar in the 6th man/Ginobili role as their need might be, and there's nothing wrong that.

[Axel]

So we're punishing Derozan because he's in the 2nd tier of team leading scorers? Middleton is not in any tier of team leading scorers. Without Giannis the Bucks would have been a lottery team, likely a very bad team. Without Lowry, the Raptors are still around .500 and in the playoffs, I think that's safe to say based on evidence. We keep moving the goalposts, now it's "which player best adds value as 3rd or 4th option on a champion". What? These rankings are, simply put, the "best players in the NBA" Full stop. Coaches pick Demar every year. Players pick Demar. GMs pick Demar. The only guys who seem to not are the bloggers so bogged down in spreadsheets they miss the forest through the trees. Middleton is the type of player who can hide for stretches of games and seasons, let Giannis do the work, or other guys, and the team may not miss a beat. Demar has a job that the team relies on, a job that 90% of the players in the league would buckle under and fail trying to perform for 82 games

Demar's opportunity is a factor in allowing him to score 27 PPG. If our entire offence wasn't build around him, he wouldn't score and would add value in other areas. If Middleton had the offence built around him, he would likely score in volume, but would also add value as a versatile defender.

[LJ2]

Demar's opportunity is a factor in allowing him to score 27 PPG. If our entire offence wasn't build around him, he wouldn't score and would add value in other areas. If Middleton had the offence built around him, he would likely score in volume, but would also add value as a versatile defender.

Middleton is not the work horse that DeMar is. I have a lot of doubts he could put up the numbers DeMar does if the Bucks offence was built around him. Not nearly as versatile as DeMar imo.

[Scraptor]

Then why do the rankings of multiple media outlets all say similar things? Are they all wrong?

OR are people ignoring legit reasons?

Perhaps a mix of the two, but I'm leaning more to the latter.

This is the best post on the subject imo:

Meh, it's also the effect of love for the new NBA, 3+D are obviously being weighted heavily for wing players (Middleton) and it's just as hip to mock volume scorers as it is to make fun of Coldplay.

Interestingly, weak D at any other position seems to be much less of a concern than at SG/SF. Players are being judged against trendy archetypes rather than on their own actual merits.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

This is the best post on the subject imo:

Yeah S.R. nailed that.

[KeonClark]

Demar's opportunity is a factor in allowing him to score 27 PPG. If our entire offence wasn't build around him, he wouldn't score and would add value in other areas. If Middleton had the offence built around him, he would likely score in volume, but would also add value as a versatile defender.

This appears to be where we have a disconnect. You believe the raptors made derozan simply by giving him shots. Again if it was so easy, shouldn't all 30 teams be able to have a 27 ppg scorer? Just give your guard 20 shots and voila?

[Axel]

This appears to be where we have a disconnect. You believe the raptors made derozan simply by giving him shots. Again if it was so easy, shouldn't all 30 teams be able to have a 27 ppg scorer? Just give your guard 20 shots and voila?

I wouldn't go as far as that, but to a certain degree, his permission to force his offence is a factor. Just go look at the tapes of the playoffs against Paul George with Demar forcing painful shot after painful shot as Exhibit A. A volume scorer who has led the league in FGA attempts the last 2 seasons. You can't pretend that his role isn't an impact on his PPG.

[The Great One]

This appears to be where we have a disconnect. You believe the raptors made derozan simply by giving him shots. Again if it was so easy, shouldn't all 30 teams be able to have a 27 ppg scorer? Just give your guard 20 shots and voila?

Exactly

[Other Scott]

So we're punishing Derozan because he's in the 2nd tier of team leading scorers? Middleton is not in any tier of team leading scorers. Without Giannis the Bucks would have been a lottery team, likely a very bad team. Without Lowry, the Raptors are still around .500 and in the playoffs, I think that's safe to say based on evidence. We keep moving the goalposts, now it's "which player best adds value as 3rd or 4th option on a champion". What? These rankings are, simply put, the "best players in the NBA" Full stop. Coaches pick Demar every year. Players pick Demar. GMs pick Demar. The only guys who seem to not are the bloggers so bogged down in spreadsheets they miss the forest through the trees. Middleton is the type of player who can hide for stretches of games and seasons, let Giannis do the work, or other guys, and the team may not miss a beat. Demar has a job that the team relies on, a job that 90% of the players in the league would buckle under and fail trying to perform for 82 games

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying Middleton is better than DeRozan. DeRozan is better.

What I'm saying is where it gets tricky is that Middleton has a place in the closing lineup of a championship level team, as a 3rd option/ role player. I don't believe DeRozan does have a role in that situation. So the problem is that while DeRozan is a better player, to win championships Middleton is the guy you want to have, not DeRozan. That's where things become tricky. If you want to be a good team and you don't have two of the top 10 players in the league, then you would rather have Derozan because a team built around him can win 45-50 games. But if you already have a team with Paul and Harden, for example, you would take Middleton over DeRozan any day.

[S.R.]

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying Middleton is better than DeRozan. DeRozan is better.

What I'm saying is where it gets tricky is that Middleton has a place in the closing lineup of a championship level team, as a 3rd option/ role player. I don't believe DeRozan does have a role in that situation. So the problem is that while DeRozan is a better player, to win championships Middleton is the guy you want to have, not DeRozan. That's where things become tricky. If you want to be a good team and you don't have two of the top 10 players in the league, then you would rather have Derozan because a team built around him can win 45-50 games. But if you already have a team with Paul and Harden, for example, you would take Middleton over DeRozan any day.

Sure, but these are team building + fit questions, not "best player" rankings. I guess we can argue how much of a difference there is there, but I think there is.

How about if you don't have a 1A guy yet, no Paul and no Harden, and your choices are DeRozan vs Middleton? DeRozan can't slot into Middleton's role next to two superstars, but Middleton definitely can't get 25+ ppg as scorer 1A on an NBA team, he can't do what DeRozan does.

I agree with the above points that if a guy like Middleton is in fact a better player than DeMar AND an easier guy to slot into a team, then the market would reflect it. But the market still pays DeRozan nearly twice as much (!) as Middleton, even with all the 3+D love in the league.

[The Claw Reborn]

Funny that people always like to spin things, it's definitely the sign of the times when crowd size is the barometer for success. Lol.

Derozan was ranked a mid 30's player, why because he can't defend, shoot the three and make his teammates better.

Spin doctors however would find other alternative facts to showcase who got the bigger crowd. Lmao

Sean Spicer said hi to the Emmy's crowd the other night.

[Scraptor]

Funny that people always like to spin things, it's definitely the sign of the times when crowd size is the barometer for success. Lol.

Derozan was ranked a mid 30's player, why because he can't defend, shoot the three and make his teammates better.

Spin doctors however would find other alternative facts to showcase who got the bigger crowd. Lmao

Sean Spicer said hi to the Emmy's crowd the other night.

DeRozan made an All-NBA team as one of the top 15 players in the league. Say 20 if you want to argue positional requirements skew who gets in. Needless to say, he was the 2nd-ranked shooting guard (3rd if you consider Butler a guard).

But I didn't hear you talking about that ranking.

Rankings are subjective. People will choose the ones that support their own viewpoint. If you want to talk about spin you should probably examine your own biases first.

[The Claw Reborn]

DeRozan made an All-NBA team as one of the top 15 players in the league. Say 20 if you want to argue positional requirements skew who gets in. Needless to say, he was the 2nd-ranked shooting guard (3rd if you consider Butler a guard).

But I didn't hear you talking about that ranking.

Rankings are subjective. People will choose the ones that support their own viewpoint. If you want to talk about spin you should probably examine your own biases first.

The only three bullet points as far as I know that were stationary are:

• Poor Defense
  • Can not Shoot the Three
  • Inability to make his other Teammates better
  
  

No spinning on that.

But I'd rather these guys rank him higher that at least would prevent him from padding his PPG and allow his teammates to get more touches. He can put to rest This #proveem shit

[Shaolin Fantastic]

This appears to be where we have a disconnect. You believe the raptors made derozan simply by giving him shots. Again if it was so easy, shouldn't all 30 teams be able to have a 27 ppg scorer? Just give your guard 20 shots and voila?

Not just 27ppg. 27ppg with around league average efficiency at a TS% of 55%. A 2:1 AST%/TO% rate while operating with nearly 35% usage and a 113 oRTG. It is absolutely ridiculous that he is suggesting that most teams could just pick a player, hand them that responsibility and they'd produce those results.

Edit: Put the stats to the side for a second, and I'm genuinely starting to wonder if people are seeing the same things I am when I'm watching DeRozan. Say what you will about him not playing the game in a textbook "efficient" way, but LOOK at some of the shit that dude is doing on the court. His ability to finish extremely high difficulty shots in traffic, the footwork to basically maneuver himself out of any situation and get a clean look off, the cleverness he has to constantly bait defenders out of position or into fouls and among the best combination of body control and pure athleticism in the league.

I'm really not sure what people are seeing, but that is not something that everybody in the league just has. We are talking about top of the line, high-end skill when it comes to DeMar's offensive game. Even Kevin Durant was in awe of the guy's footwork, and KD is probably going to go down as one of the top 5 best scorers in the history of the game.

I'm sure most people here played ball at least at some level. This guy does stuff that you'd just be messing around trying to do before practice or something and failing, at high speed against NBA level athletes and competition. I think there's just generally an under-appreciation for the actual ability he has because he lacks in the areas that people want wings to be good at nowadays (3PT shooting and defense).

This isn't even from last year where he added even more stuff to his arsenal, but the year before. Please tell me again how you can just pluck guys off teams, hand them 20 shots a game and they start doing this kind of stuff in games:

I don't like blowing smoke up the guy like this, because I genuinely do have a big problem with the negatives that come with him, but I don't like it when people act like he's JUST a product of being handed a bunch of shots. That's thousands of hours of honing your craft, not anybody in the league can do that.