Everything Derozan

[DanH]

Lesser of two evils though. Lowry wanted that five-year guaranteed money and we ended up giving the player option on year 4. I imagine something similar happened with Demar. He probably wanted either more money or more years and this was the concession.

We just never get to see the flip side, the player's demands. We just see the final contract as is.

Can't see DD having wanted more years, since we gave him the maximum term allowed.

The reality is, over the first few years of that extension, his salary didn't matter much - we were in the process of a rebuild. Next year and in 2016 and later is when it will matter - and in 2016 he now has the possibility of getting paid 23M. The whole idea of extending a player like DD long term is to take a gamble he will outplay his contract. Why set up a scenario where if all goes well, he gets to opt out of said contract and hit the open market with his increased value? Even if you retain him, surely he is no longer on the value side of the curve.

Heck any forethought at all would have shown that summer 2016 would have a big jump in TV money, so it is the LAST season you would want to put a player option in (as the player is almost guaranteed to opt out). The deal was lambasted at the time as being an overpay. If you needed to give him the high pay (again, his value around the league was nowhere near 10M at the time) to lock him in long term, you sure as heck do not let him opt out of being locked in long term.

If it would have taken more money to get him to commit for the full 4 years, might as well have let him go to restricted free agency and let the market decide his value.

[imanshumpert]

Can't see DD having wanted more years, since we gave him the maximum term allowed.

The reality is, over the first few years of that extension, his salary didn't matter much - we were in the process of a rebuild. Next year and in 2016 and later is when it will matter - and in 2016 he now has the possibility of getting paid 23M. The whole idea of extending a player like DD long term is to take a gamble he will outplay his contract. Why set up a scenario where if all goes well, he gets to opt out of said contract and hit the open market with his increased value? Even if you retain him, surely he is no longer on the value side of the curve.

Heck any forethought at all would have shown that summer 2016 would have a big jump in TV money, so it is the LAST season you would want to put a player option in (as the player is almost guaranteed to opt out). The deal was lambasted at the time as being an overpay. If you needed to give him the high pay (again, his value around the league was nowhere near 10M at the time) to lock him in long term, you sure as heck do not let him opt out of being locked in long term.

If it would have taken more money to get him to commit for the full 4 years, might as well have let him go to restricted free agency and let the market decide his value.

See now this is just false.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Jrue (before making the all-star game), Curry (with significant health concerns), Lawson and DeRozan all got similar extensions for between about 9.5 and 12M a year? And then Tyreke got 12M on the open market? All young guards from the same draft class on bad teams (except Lawson) with similar contract values.

Also note that those other guys don't have player options, which might be because they got bigger contracts (11/12M per year compared to DD's 9.5). In hindsight it would've been smarter to pay DeRozan 12M per year w/ no option but what's done is done.

And your point about letting him test RFA isn't a good one. We've seen teams get burned time and time again for letting high potential guys/borderline all-star level FAs test free agency. Unless you're willing to pay the max or near the max for that player, it's not smart unless you plan to lose the asset for nothing.

[DanH]

See now this is just false.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Jrue (before making the all-star game), Curry (with significant health concerns), Lawson and DeRozan all got similar extensions for between about 9.5 and 12M a year? And then Tyreke got 12M on the open market? All young guards from the same draft class on bad teams (except Lawson) with similar contract values.

Also note that those other guys don't have player options, which might be because they got bigger contracts (11/12M per year compared to DD's 9.5). In hindsight it would've been smarter to pay DeRozan 12M per year w/ no option but what's done is done.

And your point about letting him test RFA isn't a good one. We've seen teams get burned time and time again for letting high potential guys/borderline all-star level FAs test free agency. Unless you're willing to pay the max or near the max for that player, it's not smart unless you plan to lose the asset for nothing.

Look, if he was going to be an RFA this summer, I would have been all over an extension. But the reality is that DD was never anywhere near the all-star discussion until this season. He was not borderline by any stretch at the time of the extension, nor at the time when he would have been an RFA.

[mcHAPPY]

Look, if he was going to be an RFA this summer, I would have been all over an extension. But the reality is that DD was never anywhere near the all-star discussion until this season. He was not borderline by any stretch at the time of the extension, nor at the time when he would have been an RFA.

This is one of the few things on these boards that are NOT opinion based.

This is FACT

[chico]

Look, if he was going to be an RFA this summer, I would have been all over an extension. But the reality is that DD was never anywhere near the all-star discussion until this season. He was not borderline by any stretch at the time of the extension, nor at the time when he would have been an RFA.

Whatever fans, talking heads, or writers thought of his value, the GM, along with coaches assessments turns out to be more accurate than basing it on "DD was never anywhere near", and we now have him at a steal of a price. Go figure. Management doesn't just base contract offers on the past with young players, but how they project them. They were right. As far as the player option goes, as has already been pointed out, there are 2 sides to a negotiation, with multiple contract details to hammer out, not just player options in a vacuum.

[mcHAPPY]

Can't see DD having wanted more years, since we gave him the maximum term allowed.

The reality is, over the first few years of that extension, his salary didn't matter much - we were in the process of a rebuild. Next year and in 2016 and later is when it will matter - and in 2016 he now has the possibility of getting paid 23M. The whole idea of extending a player like DD long term is to take a gamble he will outplay his contract. Why set up a scenario where if all goes well, he gets to opt out of said contract and hit the open market with his increased value? Even if you retain him, surely he is no longer on the value side of the curve.

Heck any forethought at all would have shown that summer 2016 would have a big jump in TV money, so it is the LAST season you would want to put a player option in (as the player is almost guaranteed to opt out). The deal was lambasted at the time as being an overpay. If you needed to give him the high pay (again, his value around the league was nowhere near 10M at the time) to lock him in long term, you sure as heck do not let him opt out of being locked in long term.

If it would have taken more money to get him to commit for the full 4 years, might as well have let him go to restricted free agency and let the market decide his value.

Bold 1: this can't be emphasized enough. With Bargnani's deal on the books, as well as Fields, and subsequently Gay 2015 was the first opportunity to have any cap space - that would have been 2 years in to his deal.

Bold 2: the only saving grace is his cap hold is going to be $14.5M. Granted that is still an extra $5-5.5M but less than the $23M he could get based on max salary. A lot of people play the loyalty card but anything can and most likely will happen. Look at Parsons - that was thought to be a slam dunk case of *wink,wink* but as it turned out it was anything but once Parsons/his agent felt slighted by negotiations.

Bold 3: A lot of current and former and former now current posters here use the benefit of hindsight to justify giving the contract as is in the first place. Well, that logic permits one to say there never should have been a player option for all the reasons DanH said.


2016 is going to be interesting. The Wizards are already gearing up by hiring Durant's high school coach.

[mcHAPPY]

Whatever fans, talking heads, or writers thought of his value, the GM, along with coaches assessments turns out to be more accurate than basing it on "DD was never anywhere near", and we now have him at a steal of a price. Go figure. Management doesn't just base contract offers on the past with young players, but how they project them. They were right. As far as the player option goes, as has already been pointed out, there are 2 sides to a negotiation, with multiple contract details to hammer out, not just player options in a vacuum.

In that case Colangelo really got reamed.

Not only did he overpay based on performance, he also gave the agent/player the flexibility of a player option.

I bet a number of agents cried many tears when Leiweke removed the purse strings from Colangelo's hand.

[torch19]

Not trying to defend Colangelo but there are other factors as well. We needed someone to reup with us for once & DD started that trend. DD has been a highly touted prospect since HS & his agent is a powerful man. These probably factored into the negotiations but I'm jusy glad it's looking like a good contract now. The fact that he hit his incentives show that DD is living up to his contract. I wish it was a team option though. It's like the difference between natural and fake titties.

[imanshumpert]

In that case Colangelo really got reamed.

Not only did he overpay based on performance, he also gave the agent/player the flexibility of a player option.

I bet a number of agents cried many tears when Leiweke removed the purse strings from Colangelo's hand.

You're off base here. Players coming off rookie deals aren't JUST paid for performance. Potential and longevity are also huge factors that result in them getting higher salaries than comparable UFAs.

DeRozan was playing at about the same level as a guy like Monta Ellis at the time of his extension. Monta got 8M per year, he is what he is. DeRozan could still improve and especially considering how raw he was coming in, should still improve... plus he still had 8 years before even hitting 30.

[imanshumpert]

Not trying to defend Colangelo but there are other factors as well. We needed someone to reup with us for once & DD started that trend. DD has been a highly touted prospect since HS & his agent is a powerful man. These probably factored into the negotiations but I'm jusy glad it's looking like a good contract now. The fact that he hit his incentives show that DD is living up to his contract. I wish it was a team option though. It's like the difference between natural and fake titties.

I am really struggling to make a connection here...

[DanH]

Not trying to defend Colangelo but there are other factors as well. We needed someone to reup with us for once & DD started that trend. DD has been a highly touted prospect since HS & his agent is a powerful man. These probably factored into the negotiations but I'm jusy glad it's looking like a good contract now. The fact that he hit his incentives show that DD is living up to his contract. I wish it was a team option though. It's like the difference between natural and fake titties.

For once? Bosh and VC both re-upped in that situation, when they were coming off their rookie contracts as well.

[imanshumpert]

For once? Bosh and VC both re-upped in that situation, when they were coming off their rookie contracts as well.

Yeah I don't know why people call RFAs re-signing "loyalty". They have basically no choice unless they pick up the QO (which I don't think any star has ever done).

[mcHAPPY]

You're off base here. Players coming off rookie deals aren't JUST paid for performance. Potential and longevity are also huge factors that result in them getting higher salaries than comparable UFAs.

DeRozan was playing at about the same level as a guy like Monta Ellis at the time of his extension. Monta got 8M per year, he is what he is. DeRozan could still improve and especially considering how raw he was coming in, should still improve... plus he still had 8 years before even hitting 30.

Now you're forgetting DeRozan is a historical anomaly. He is far from the norm. The overwhelming majority of players are what they are by 10,000 nba minutes played. This was a huge argument of mine last summer which eventually was proven false because DeRozan is the very rare exception. There was also very little growth between year 3 and 4.

DeRozan has never had the play making or scoring ability due to his handles of Monta Ellis.

Some guys are paid off rookie deals on potential. Most have shown a lot more than DeRozan though especially at the guard and wing. Evans was a former 20/5/5 ROY. Rose MVP. George Allstar. Love stretch 4 with monster scoring and rebounding. Holiday Allstar. Cousins a rare combination of size and talent.

The only guy I can think of paid on potential of late is favors.

Guys like Hayward and parsons appear to be new norm with increasing cap but this was not an issue last year. Obviously the rules have changed.

[DanH]

You're off base here. Players coming off rookie deals aren't JUST paid for performance. Potential and longevity are also huge factors that result in them getting higher salaries than comparable UFAs.

DeRozan was playing at about the same level as a guy like Monta Ellis at the time of his extension. Monta got 8M per year, he is what he is. DeRozan could still improve and especially considering how raw he was coming in, should still improve... plus he still had 8 years before even hitting 30.

DD signed his extension between the 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons. At the time, he was coming off a season with a 12.8 PER, a .503 TS%, and a .054 WS/48. He posted 16.7 PPG. PER and PPG are pretty good captures of league perception, and the other two are pretty good captures of how good a player actually is.

That season, Ellis posted a PER of 17.5, a .509 TS%, and a .059 WS/48. He scored 20.4 PPG. I would argue although they were similar players, Ellis would have been seen league wide as having significantly higher value at the time. He was making 11M that summer.

Let's look at what similar players from his draft class did in the same time frame (2011-12 season), and what they did in terms of extensions/free agency.

DeRozan: 16.7 PPG, 12.8 PER, signed extension, got 9.5M per with potential to be 10.1M with incentives
Jennings: 19.1 PPG, 16.1 PER, went to RFA, got 8M per plus incentives
Henderson: 15.1 PPG, 14.0 PER, signed extension, got 6M per
Evans: 16.5 PPG, 16.4 PER, went to RFA, got 10M per plus 1M in incentives

Now, of the two who went to free agency, let's see how their stats line up in their contract years to what DD's were that year:
DeRozan: 18.1 PPG, 14.7 PER, would have gotten ???
Jennings: 17.5 PPG, 16.1 PER, got 8M
Evans: 15.2 PPG, 18.1 PER, got 10M + incentives

So, two players who would have been seen as more efficient, with comparable (at least in Jennings' case) scoring totals, similar draft positions (this can impact perception even a few years out from the draft), and none of whom were considered great defensively, got 8M and up to 11M each. That 11M includes the incentives, so should probably be compared to DD's 10.1M total.

Throw in the fact that another wing player with similar stats from the same draft class who agreed to an extension early got 6M, and it's hard to be too glowing about the extension terms DD got. Henderson got a player option, probably because he agreed to such a cheap deal. Cheap as in 3 to 4 M cheaper than DD's.

[imanshumpert]

Now you're forgetting DeRozan is a historical anomaly. He is far from the norm. The overwhelming majority of players are what they are by 10,000 nba minutes played. This was a huge argument of mine last summer which eventually was proven false because DeRozan is the very rare exception. There was also very little growth between year 3 and 4.

DeRozan has never had the play making or scoring ability due to his handles of Monta Ellis.

Some guys are paid off rookie deals on potential. Most have shown a lot more than DeRozan though especially at the guard and wing. Evans was a former 20/5/5 ROY. Rose MVP. George Allstar. Love stretch 4 with monster scoring and rebounding. Holiday Allstar. Cousins a rare combination of size and talent.

The only guy I can think of paid on potential of late is favors.

Guys like Hayward and parsons appear to be new norm with increasing cap but this was not an issue last year. Obviously the rules have changed.

BS

The Philadelphia 76ers have reached terms on a contract extension with guard Jrue Holiday, the team announced Wednesday night.

Terms were not disclosed by the team, but sources told ESPN.com that the Sixers and Holiday's camp agreed on a four-year, $41 million deal just before the league's midnight deadline that will take effect starting next season.

Holiday averaged 13.5 points and 4.5 assists a game last season.

He wasn't even as good as Derozan when he got that money