View Poll Results: Are you content with last season production for Demar's new salary?

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  • More money, more production

    4 50.00%
  • Was worth the money last season, so repeat that

    4 50.00%
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Thread: Everything Demar Derozan

  1. #22461
    Raptors Republic Veteran Scraptor's Avatar
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    Unless Harden is out a while I see the voting going something like this:
    1. Harden
    2. LeBron
    3. Kyrie (purely because voters love raw wins)
    4. KD/Curry splitting votes

    If we finish with the top seed in the east with DeMar continuing to play at this level, I think he should win, and would have an okay chance. But voters are getting more sophisticated, and I could see the defensive advanced stats hurting DeMar. Of the MVP candidates, in terms of total RPM, they are ranked like this

    1. Curry
    2. Harden
    4. Westbrook
    7. LeBron
    8. Giannis
    25. KD
    27. Irving (behind Horford at 17)
    34. DeMar (behind Kyle at 19)

    I don't think RPM is a be-all/end-all stat but I do think it tells an easily digestible story for media members who will use it to confirm their biases.

    Either way I am just glad he legitimately feels like part of the conversation. Because of the question marks around other players he feels like an even greater possibility than when Kyle was in the mix over the past few years.

  2. #22462
    Raptors Republic Superstar S.R.'s Avatar
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    I don't like the assumption that a great player with a weaker supporting cast should have a better shot at the MVP than a great player on a great team. The guy on the weaker team stuffs the boxscore, which does make it a tough call, defining who's the more valuable player that year.

    Durant and Curry are both MVP calibre players in their primes, whether on the same team or not.

    Pippen used to get MVP votes while playing with MJ (he did get a lot more when MJ played baseball).

  3. #22463
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    I don't like the assumption that a great player with a weaker supporting cast should have a better shot at the MVP than a great player on a great team. The guy on the weaker team stuffs the boxscore, which does make it a tough call, defining who's the more valuable player that year.

    Durant and Curry are both MVP calibre players in their primes, whether on the same team or not.

    Pippen used to get MVP votes while playing with MJ (he did get a lot more when MJ played baseball).
    There really should be a most valuable and a most outstanding player award. Like, kevin durant may be the best player or the most outstanding. Hell curry may be. But neither should be considered most valuable to their team.

    Like, when steve nash won. He was so freaking valuable to the suns and their style and roster makeup. Was he a pure better player than shaq in 04? Or lebron in 05? I don't think so. But he deserved those trophies because he brought the suns wins with doing what he needed to do.

    Also derozan is great but harden/lebron are ahead
    Last edited by KeonClark; Sat Jan 13th, 2018 at 12:16 AM.
    11/20/16 Lest we forget - The Sacramento Screw Job.
    We will not go quietly in the night. We will rage against the dying light. We will study every buzzer beater with intensified might, because somethin with the NBA doesn't smell right.

  4. #22464
    Raptors Republic Veteran Scraptor's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    I don't like the assumption that a great player with a weaker supporting cast should have a better shot at the MVP than a great player on a great team. The guy on the weaker team stuffs the boxscore, which does make it a tough call, defining who's the more valuable player that year.

    Durant and Curry are both MVP calibre players in their primes, whether on the same team or not.

    Pippen used to get MVP votes while playing with MJ (he did get a lot more when MJ played baseball).
    There's a significant difference between Jordan-Pippen and Durant-Curry imo. Pippen's career high TS% was 56.1%. Over the past four years Curry's averaged almost 65%TS on high volume, and Durant's put up 64%TS.

    We are never going to fully know what the maximum potential of either player is, because having one another on the team makes the game so much easier for each other. Having Pippen around helped Jordan for sure, but Jordan was still carrying the team offensively.

    That said, LeBron did win two MVPs with the Heatles. But I think at that point it was clearly his team, and he had almost double the win shares of DWade. It's much more muddy with the Warriors, as it's hard to tell who's the alpha on the Warriors. Steph seems to have the better statistical contributions but it doesn't feel like it's his team anymore.

  5. #22465
    Raptors Republic Veteran Scraptor's Avatar
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    One neat thing that's been fun to follow along this year with DeMar is his move up the career scoring leaderboard. Now that he's cracked the top 250 in career NBA/ABA scoring (currently 231st), he's started to pass some pretty memorable names. Recently he's passed:

    Charles Oakley
    Danny Manning
    Mo Cheeks
    Tommy Heinsohn

    And is coming up on:
    Mark Jackson
    Nick Van Exel
    Bill Sharman
    Rik Smits
    Derrick Coleman

    Next year could be really fun as he could potentially pass:
    Dave Cowens
    Bill Laimbeer
    Alonzo Mourning
    Nate Thurmond
    Bill Russell

    And break into the top 150. Knock on wood he keeps up his durability and proficiency.

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  7. #22466
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    One neat thing that's been fun to follow along this year with DeMar is his move up the career scoring leaderboard. Now that he's cracked the top 250 in career NBA/ABA scoring (currently 231st), he's started to pass some pretty memorable names. Recently he's passed:

    Charles Oakley
    Danny Manning
    Mo Cheeks
    Tommy Heinsohn

    And is coming up on:
    Mark Jackson
    Nick Van Exel
    Bill Sharman
    Rik Smits
    Derrick Coleman

    Next year could be really fun as he could potentially pass:
    Dave Cowens
    Bill Laimbeer
    Alonzo Mourning
    Nate Thurmond
    Bill Russell

    And break into the top 150. Knock on wood he keeps up his durability and proficiency.
    I wonder how many more years he sees himself playing? He could add another 4500 points to his total in the next 3 years pretty easily, I would think.. That could move him up to around 27000 points. Ahead of Tim Duncan, Hakeem, and Oscar Robertson. Pretty heady company.

  8. #22467
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    MVP for me isn't about the best player. The way I look at it is, if I take a guy off an outstanding team, what happens to that team? How much is that player driving the success of that team?

    That's why I can't give it to Curry or Durant. You take either of them off that's still what, a 60+ win team? Maybe a little lower if you take away Curry than if you take away Durant but the point remains.

    Now to be fair I say this but I'm not sure what would happen to the Celtics or Raptors if Kyrie/DD weren't there. I think they'd be worse but not sure by how much.

    Actually I think I just made a pretty good argument for LeBron or Harden to be MVP, because I think the Cavs would be sub .500 without LBJ there, and Houston wouldn't be very good without Harden either.

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  10. #22468
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Demar is having a great year, but I think Harden needs to win it. He was robbed last year by the Russell Westbrook Vanity Project.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

  11. #22469
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    That guy Chris Paul is pretty good though.. might even be better than Lowry this year. If Cleveland didn't have Lebron would they make the playoffs? I'm pretty sure Houston would without Harden.

  12. #22470
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    I agree re: "best player" vs "most important to his team," though that very distinction drives a lot of the MVP chatter so I doubt they change it.

    I'll always lean towards trying to figure out who the best player in the league is that year, e.g. if at the end of the season 30 GM's could run a draft to replay that year only, which guy would most likely be picked #1? That's my MVP.

    That Durant joined Curry, who was a 2x time MVP, a champion, and the leader of a 73 win team, and Durant is arguably the best player on that team right now, I think that says a lot about how good prime KD is.

    With Harden missing some time and the Cavs slipping, the MVP race is certainly getting more interesting.

  13. #22471
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    That guy Chris Paul is pretty good though.. might even be better than Lowry this year. If Cleveland didn't have Lebron would they make the playoffs? I'm pretty sure Houston would without Harden.
    Yeah but the league is stupid sometimes. Regardless of Paul, Harden could win it just because he deserved it last year and didn't get it. Last year's Rockets team would've been lucky to win 25 games without him. His team finished with a significantly better record than OKC, and beat OKC in a head to head playoff matchup. But Westbrook padded his stats all year and got it.

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  14. #22472
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I wonder how many more years he sees himself playing? He could add another 4500 points to his total in the next 3 years pretty easily, I would think.. That could move him up to around 27000 points. Ahead of Tim Duncan, Hakeem, and Oscar Robertson. Pretty heady company.
    Unfortunately your math is off by 10,000 points. DeMar is at 12,455 career points. At 17,000 points he'd be in the Dumars/Worthy/Sprewell/Bosh bucket. It's another 10,000 from there to get past Duncan, Hakeem, and Oscar. That's one reason those guys are basically top 8-12 players all time.

    If after this year he's at say 13,250, add
    3 yrs x 70 games x 22ppg = 4,620 (age 29, 30, 31 at start of season)
    3 yrs x 70 games x 18ppg = 3,780 (32, 33, 34)
    2 yrs x 70 games x 14ppg = 1,960 (35, 36)

    That would put him at 23,610. He might play another year or two after that since his game is now more about craftiness and angles and footwork, but we won't include it to account for injuries or whatnot.

    That would put him knocking on the top 30, just behind AI, Barkley, and Ray Allen. Pretty amazing to think about, but it's a long road with a lot of uncertainty.

  15. #22473
    Raptors Republic Superstar 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Almost all hockey fans know the NHL MVP wins the Hart Trophy. Anyone know the name of the NBA MVP Trophy? I didn't until I googled it.
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

  16. #22474
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    Almost all hockey fans know the NHL MVP wins the Hart Trophy. Anyone know the name of the NBA MVP Trophy? I didn't until I googled it.
    I knew it but I didn't. Like I've definitely seen it called Maurice Podoloff, but I didn't remember until I looked.

  17. #22475
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    That guy Chris Paul is pretty good though.. might even be better than Lowry this year. If Cleveland didn't have Lebron would they make the playoffs? I'm pretty sure Houston would without Harden.
    You could probably give the award to LeBron every year. That guy is truly unreal. Stick him on any team in the league and he could carry them to the playoffs

  18. #22476
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    Unfortunately your math is off by 10,000 points. DeMar is at 12,455 career points. At 17,000 points he'd be in the Dumars/Worthy/Sprewell/Bosh bucket. It's another 10,000 from there to get past Duncan, Hakeem, and Oscar. That's one reason those guys are basically top 8-12 players all time.

    If after this year he's at say 13,250, add
    3 yrs x 70 games x 22ppg = 4,620 (age 29, 30, 31 at start of season)
    3 yrs x 70 games x 18ppg = 3,780 (32, 33, 34)
    2 yrs x 70 games x 14ppg = 1,960 (35, 36)

    That would put him at 23,610. He might play another year or two after that since his game is now more about craftiness and angles and footwork, but we won't include it to account for injuries or whatnot.

    That would put him knocking on the top 30, just behind AI, Barkley, and Ray Allen. Pretty amazing to think about, but it's a long road with a lot of uncertainty.
    I wonder what the heck I was looking at? I remember seeing career totals. Screwed up during the transition from reading to typing. Oh well, if highly trained professionals can blow an out of bounds call during the last minute of a highly contested ball game, I guess a blowhard mumbling in a fan forum cam be forgiven for screwing up.

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  20. #22477
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer KeonClark's Avatar
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    11/20/16 Lest we forget - The Sacramento Screw Job.
    We will not go quietly in the night. We will rage against the dying light. We will study every buzzer beater with intensified might, because somethin with the NBA doesn't smell right.

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  22. #22478
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    DeMar is starting in the all star game, as expected. But the cool thing is that in addition to the fan vote, he was also number 2 in both the players and media voting, which goes to show just to show how much he's solidified his reputation. Last year he was 3/3/2.

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  24. #22479
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    One time all-star lmao

    Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
    @Chr1st1anL

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  26. #22480
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    One time all-star lmao

    Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
    You going back to a comment from three yeas ago?

    And you knew DeMar would progress the way he has??? Did you mention his 3pt shooting three years ago?? I don't remember. Just wondering.

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