Everything Derozan

[Abbas]

I'm looking at his stats. And they are pretty close right now but I think Demar is better this season but Waiters could be better in future. But can he work with Irving. And what's up with his FT%? why is it at 66% for March and 67% for the season. He's shooting decent from 3pt range. So wtf with FT%

Derozan PER is nearly 5pts better, there is no way Waiters is better then him this season

4-5 years down the road maybe but not if he's still plays with kryie.

[OldSkoolCool]

Flak? No.

Request to elaborate a little? Yes please.

Absolutely.

Waiters is better than DD at operating the PnR and is waaaay better at creating for his teammates (hence 6th man role).

He is a better ball handler and is better at getting to the rim, however is not as good of a finisher as DD. Although according to NBA.com Waiters has a higher percentage of points produced than DD at the rim, indicating that he is slashing more rather than settling.

Waiters is much, much better at creating off the dribble. For example see how easily he tore down the Raps the other day, that was not a one time thing, he consistently is able to do it.

He is a better three point shooter.

His defense I would say is about par with DeMar's, however Waiters can improve easily with improvements to his body and some proper coaching.

Waiters is very strong as well, and is very hard to shut down defensively, something that DD has not been able to overcome.

I honestly think Waiter's can play a more impactful role within a team off the bench, than DD can in any position. For this reason (as well as those listed above) I think he is a better player than DD. Not because he is putting up better numbers, but because I believe he can make the team better than DD can.

I'm known as one of the biggest critics of DD but suggesting that Waiters is better then DD just because he has played well with Kyrie out is just absurd. If he could keep this up for an extended run such as a season then I could see where your coming from.

Also Waiters hates being a 6th man. He flourishes when he starts and has the ball in his hands making plays. Also waiters is a headache to have on your team in sure if he's fighting with Kyrie its almost guaranteed that him and Kyle would have some friction

Where have you heard this? For Waiter's entire career (even college) he has been used off the bench and is where he has been most efficient. I think not playing for the Cavs will be a great change for his 'head case' rep as I really don't think he is, he just doesn't jive well with Kyrie, who gets the princess treatment, and that rubs him the wrong way because he wants to win. Even with Kyrie healthy, I watched some of the Cavs games and the Cavs are a much better team without KI on the floor, and much better with Waiters. (http://stats.nba.com/playerStats.htm...erMode=PerGame) <-- look at "bench" split, shows Waiters is a better shooter off the bench.

[BigCamB]

Waiters is getting better and better. Love his ability to make plays of others, underrated passer.
Do you think Waiters could be converted to a PG in the future? I avoid watching the cavs because they're awful and I dislike Irvings game, so I could be way off, but I like Waiters potential to get way better than he already is.

[OldSkoolCool]

Waiters is getting better and better. Love his ability to make plays of others, underrated passer.
Do you think Waiters could be converted to a PG in the future? I avoid watching the cavs because they're awful and I dislike Irvings game, so I could be way off, but I like Waiters potential to get way better than he already is.

No. I don't see him being a great decision maker in terms of coming down and setting up a specific play that is to counter a defensive style. However put him beside a defensive PG who can, but who will also step aside on the possessions where a PnR is suited and allow Waiters to run it. He would essentially become a primary ball handler as a scoring guard but not have the other responsibilities required of a point guard, which I do not think are his strong suits.

Basically put him in a situation where he plays within the offense as a catch and shoot three point guy on possessions where there is a set play, but then let him do his thing (in a controlled fashion of course) when the defense dictates or the team needs him to be the primary handler in the PnR.



Irving: He reminds me of Brandon Jennings 2.0. People mention his high assist rates and then make the assumption that he is playing to get his teammates open looks...but really all he does is go Uncle Drew and try to get his and the D collapses on him, then he still tries to get his...and then again....and then when if he has absolutely no way to throw up any type of shot he passes. Kyrie really has a lot of wasted motion on the court

It is really brutal to watch and I can understand how Waiters has clashed with him seeing as Waiters actively looks for his teammates or if he does get inside he reacts very well to the D and will make the pass rather than the tough shot.

[imanshumpert]

Absolutely.

Waiters is better than DD at operating the PnR and is waaaay better at creating for his teammates (hence 6th man role).

No he isn't.

DeRozan creates the second most points-per-possession in the LEAGUE as a pick and roll ball handler (1.15, first is Dragic at 1.16). This is primarily because of how well he draws fouls out of the P&R but that doesn't really matter, because either way points are still being created at a better rate than Durant, LeBron, Lillard, Wade, etc and obviously Waiters.

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/0...ikes-the-suns/

Waiters' AST% is 18.7% and TO% is 12.8%

DeRozan has virtually the same AST% at 18.5% but turns it over much less (TO% is 9.6%) despite being the primary scoring option on his team, and frequently seeing doubles.

He is a better ball handler and is better at getting to the rim, however is not as good of a finisher as DD. Although according to NBA.com Waiters has a higher percentage of points produced than DD at the rim, indicating that he is slashing more rather than settling.

Yep, Waiters' takes a higher percentage of his shots at the rim. That's fine. But he doesn't make them. DeRozan shoots 69.4% from 0-3 ft (elite, same as LeBron James), while Waiter's shoots just 51.6%. They are not in the same stratosphere as finishers. That's cool that Waiters shoots it more, but the rate at which he finishes them doesn't seem to be doing much for him considering his TS% is terrible at 50%.

Waiters is much, much better at creating off the dribble. For example see how easily he tore down the Raps the other day, that was not a one time thing, he consistently is able to do it.

He is a better three point shooter.

There isn't any statistical evidence to support Waiters being better at creating off the dribble actually. Waiters is probably better at dribbling, but when it comes to producing points/assists while limiting turnovers with those dribbles, DeRozan has him beat.

Yes he's a better three point shooter, but he's not elite or even really above average at shooting them, so it doesn't mean a lot. DeRozan is vastly superior at getting to the free throw line and finishing inside, two things that he is ELITE at. Waiters is not elite at anything.

His defense I would say is about par with DeMar's, however Waiters can improve easily with improvements to his body and some proper coaching.

Waiters is very strong as well, and is very hard to shut down defensively, something that DD has not been able to overcome.

Defense is largely subjective, but the numbers disagree with you. DeMar has a better dRTG (106 to 110 for Waiters) and has almost three times as many defensive win shares (2.8 to 1.0). Additionally, DeMar gives up an opponent PER of 12.6 to opposing shooting guards (12.0 to small forwards). http://82games.com/1314/13TOR7.HTM. Whereas Waiters gives up an opponent PER of 14.8 to opposing shooting guards. So yeah I'd say DeMar is a better defender.

I honestly think Waiter's can play a more impactful role within a team off the bench, than DD can in any position. For this reason (as well as those listed above) I think he is a better player than DD. Not because he is putting up better numbers, but because I believe he can make the team better than DD can.

Ok that's nice that you think that, but it doesn't make any sense and isn't supported by any statistical or visual evidence. I think this boils down to you just not liking DeRozan. Saying Waiters is better than him is silly to say the least.

[BigCamB]

Love how you're using defensive win shares and defensive rating to jump to the defense (no pun intended) of DeMar, yet when someone compared Ross favorably to DeMar using defensive win shares and Defensive Rating you put it down simply to being part of a "good team" and a "good defense".
I guess stats are good when they're convenient.

[imanshumpert]

Love how you're using defensive win shares and defensive rating to jump to the defense (no pun intended) of DeMar, yet when someone compared Ross favorably to DeMar using defensive win shares and Defensive Rating you put it down simply to being part of a "good team" and a "good defense".
I guess stats are good when they're convenient.

Can you show me where I posted that? Not saying I didn't, just can't remember it.

And I'm not defending DeRozan lol, I'm pointing out that Waiters isn't even comparable to him as a player.

[BigCamB]

I cant be bothered looking up your posts but it was something about comparing Ross's early years to that of DeMar and various advanced stats ratings and that you stated that you had to use context in comparing them as demars early years were on awful teams. Similar context would then have to be used in relation to Waiters then, as the cavs are an awful team who've had all kinds of injury and dysfunction issues. New players coming and going all the time etc. So that obviously has to impact such ratings as well.

Sorry if I misinterpreted your statement as defending DeMar, because that's what a huge chunk of your posts usually are. (ok i lied, just went through your posting history )

Anyway, your statement was very strong for the most part, hard to argue, just felt like nitpicking one part of it Lol. I agree that Waiters isn't better than DeMar, but in the future, who knows.

[Abbas]

no he isn't.

Derozan creates the second most points-per-possession in the league as a pick and roll ball handler (1.15, first is dragic at 1.16). This is primarily because of how well he draws fouls out of the p&r but that doesn't really matter, because either way points are still being created at a better rate than durant, lebron, lillard, wade, etc and obviously waiters.

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/0...ikes-the-suns/

waiters' ast% is 18.7% and to% is 12.8%

derozan has virtually the same ast% at 18.5% but turns it over much less (to% is 9.6%) despite being the primary scoring option on his team, and frequently seeing doubles.



Yep, waiters' takes a higher percentage of his shots at the rim. That's fine. But he doesn't make them. Derozan shoots 69.4% from 0-3 ft (elite, same as lebron james), while waiter's shoots just 51.6%. They are not in the same stratosphere as finishers. That's cool that waiters shoots it more, but the rate at which he finishes them doesn't seem to be doing much for him considering his ts% is terrible at 50%.



There isn't any statistical evidence to support waiters being better at creating off the dribble actually. Waiters is probably better at dribbling, but when it comes to producing points/assists while limiting turnovers with those dribbles, derozan has him beat.

Yes he's a better three point shooter, but he's not elite or even really above average at shooting them, so it doesn't mean a lot. Derozan is vastly superior at getting to the free throw line and finishing inside, two things that he is elite at. Waiters is not elite at anything.



Defense is largely subjective, but the numbers disagree with you. Demar has a better drtg (106 to 110 for waiters) and has almost three times as many defensive win shares (2.8 to 1.0). Additionally, demar gives up an opponent per of 12.6 to opposing shooting guards (12.0 to small forwards). http://82games.com/1314/13tor7.htm. Whereas waiters gives up an opponent per of 14.8 to opposing shooting guards. So yeah i'd say demar is a better defender.



Ok that's nice that you think that, but it doesn't make any sense and isn't supported by any statistical or visual evidence. I think this boils down to you just not liking derozan. Saying waiters is better than him is silly to say the least.

all of that ^^^^

[OldSkoolCool]

No he isn't.

DeRozan creates the second most points-per-possession in the LEAGUE as a pick and roll ball handler (1.15, first is Dragic at 1.16). This is primarily because of how well he draws fouls out of the P&R but that doesn't really matter, because either way points are still being created at a better rate than Durant, LeBron, Lillard, Wade, etc and obviously Waiters.

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/0...ikes-the-suns/

Waiters' AST% is 18.7% and TO% is 12.8%

DeRozan has virtually the same AST% at 18.5% but turns it over much less (TO% is 9.6%) despite being the primary scoring option on his team, and frequently seeing doubles.

DDs number's I bet are inflated by Amir's and Pattman's ridiculous efficiency off of them, rather than how good DD is. Who is Waiter's passing to? TT? Bennett? Verajao is effiicient though, but is only one option and is used more with Irving than Waiters. Also since you are linking that article, below the chart there is a nice little paragraph that reads:

DeRozan’s numbers seem a little fluky. He’s shot just 41 percent out of pick-and-rolls, has recorded an assist on just 5.8 percent those 690 possessions (the fourth lowest rate of the group), and averages less than one secondary assist (where his pass directly leads to somebody else’s assist) per game. But he has drawn fouls on 9.4 percent of his pick-and-roll possessions, a rate on par with that of LeBron James.

DD is not very good in the PnR, however Pattman and Amir are ridiculously efficient and really help bump that number up. Also the fouls will also help bump things up.

Waiter's is a much better operator off the PnR than DD. Watch some of Waiter's game footage (assist section of his game logs) and you will quickly see how well he can penetrate/handle/see the floor in the PnR.

Don't use TOV% to characterize a players ability to handle the ball. We all know on here how bad DD is at dribbling. DeRozan doesn't dribble much and primarily operates as a catch and shoot mid range guy. This results in his numbers showing a low turnover rate due to the nature of his game. For example, Steve Nash has boasted a career TOV% of 19.5% while DD is at 9.8%. Does this mean that Nash is a bad ball handler/isn't as good as producing points off of the dribble than DeMar? Absolutely not! Guards who handle the ball more will always have a higher TOV% than catch and shoot players. The fact that Waiter's TOV% is so low for how much he handles the ball is pretty amazing and speaks volumes to how good his handle is.

Yep, Waiters' takes a higher percentage of his shots at the rim. That's fine. But he doesn't make them. DeRozan shoots 69.4% from 0-3 ft (elite, same as LeBron James), while Waiter's shoots just 51.6%. They are not in the same stratosphere as finishers. That's cool that Waiters shoots it more, but the rate at which he finishes them doesn't seem to be doing much for him considering his TS% is terrible at 50%.

I said he isn't as good as DeMar at finishing.

Waiter's shooting it on a higher percentage of his attempts means that he is getting to the rim more than settling for a jump shot, this provides indirect evidence countering your point below

There isn't any statistical evidence to support Waiters being better at creating off the dribble actually. Waiters is probably better at dribbling, but when it comes to producing points/assists while limiting turnovers with those dribbles, DeRozan has him beat.

There is no statistical evidence for ability to create off the dribble (well except for what I mentioned above), but about 3 minutes of video and the eye test will readily tell you that Waiters is better. Go through nba.com game logs and watch some of Waiters FGAs vs some of DeMar's FGAs or their AST's for this video evidence, the difference will shock you.

Bold: DD does not dribble much, hence the high points to turnover mirage

Yes he's a better three point shooter, but he's not elite or even really above average at shooting them, so it doesn't mean a lot. DeRozan is vastly superior at getting to the free throw line and finishing inside, two things that he is ELITE at. Waiters is not elite at anything.

DD is not ELITE at finishing inside, only average. Yes he is elite at getting to the line.

Waiters is in his second year on a disaster of a team who can pretty much get to the rim at will and has a skill set that can be incorporated easily into a larger scheme (unlike DD, who needs an entire offense to be structured around him to get him a shot for him to be effective).

Waiters has the potential to be an elite bench spark in this league, not by being elite in any one area, but by being so well rounded (ISO+PnR+Mid Ranged+3+Passing+Creating) that he can be elite as a whole package. Look at Manu or Crawford, do their stats speak elite at any one thing? Actually they are about the same as Waiters, but I would argue that they are ELITE 6th men because they can do everything....

Defense is largely subjective, but the numbers disagree with you. DeMar has a better dRTG (106 to 110 for Waiters) and has almost three times as many defensive win shares (2.8 to 1.0). Additionally, DeMar gives up an opponent PER of 12.6 to opposing shooting guards (12.0 to small forwards). http://82games.com/1314/13TOR7.HTM. Whereas Waiters gives up an opponent PER of 14.8 to opposing shooting guards. So yeah I'd say DeMar is a better defender.

You say it is subjective yet are relying on numbers and stats to prove your point. I've watched Waiters and he has way more potential on D than DeMar. DeMar is a BAD defender imo (way below individually and slightly below average team)....Waiters can be good one on one, but needs proper coaching to teach him how to properly work in a team's defensive scheme.

Love how you're using defensive win shares and defensive rating to jump to the defense (no pun intended) of DeMar, yet when someone compared Ross favorably to DeMar using defensive win shares and Defensive Rating you put it down simply to being part of a "good team" and a "good defense".
I guess stats are good when they're convenient.

Lol thx Big.

I have slowed down my uses of relying on stats to tell a story a lot lately and rely more on watching footage to put a quality on the quantity.

Ok that's nice that you think that, but it doesn't make any sense and isn't supported by any statistical or visual evidence. I think this boils down to you just not liking DeRozan. Saying Waiters is better than him is silly to say the least.

You're right, I don't like him and think the Raps would be no different without him in the lineup, and better if they had an actual option at the SF.

There are no numbers to support that Waiter will be a better Raptor than DD because Waiters isn't on the Raptors. It's meant to be entirely speculative and based on the reasons I stated in my explanations (ie better in PnR, how he could be used, et. al.).

[BigCamB]

You say it is subjective yet are relying on numbers and stats to prove your point. I've watched Waiters and he has way more potential on D than DeMar. DeMar is a BAD defender imo (way below individually and slightly below average team)....Waiters can be good one on one, but needs proper coaching to teach him how to properly work in a team's defensive scheme.



Lol thx Big.

I have slowed down my uses of relying on stats to tell a story a lot lately and rely more on watching footage to put a quality on the quantity.




.

I've loved stats since I was a little kid, but yeh you're right you need to find that balance of actual footage over a large sample size and also stats. Like advanced defensive stats ratings may say DeRozan and Ross are similar defensively, but we all know that is rubbish.
In regards to DeMar's defense, I almost think he's worse off the ball. How often do Amir and JV get burnt by DeMar not rotating at ALL to help, with everyone else on the team, usually they make a mistake by over helping. His awareness is terrible.

[OldSkoolCool]

In regards to DeMar's defense, I almost think he's worse off the ball. How often do Amir and JV get burnt by DeMar not rotating at ALL to help, with everyone else on the team, usually they make a mistake by over helping. His awareness is terrible.

I am kind of with you on this but didn't want to commit to saying he was bad as a team defender because I have seen a massive improvement in his rotations this season, and does do things right from time to time. But you are right he does on occasion blow a rotation quite badly. Also yes he does draw in too often, neither committing to the help nor sticking to his man (the Calderon style), which leads to some of the worse close outs on the team.

[Axel]

Shocked that no one posted this already, but SI's Chris Mannix has a Demar piece from yesterday.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba...ronto-raptors/


Great quote from the end:

"Everyone on this team is resilient," DeRozan said. "We use all the negativity, all the critics. Everyone here wants to win. That's the biggest thing. We remember the years not making the playoffs, of being the laughingstock of the league. Everyone in this group bought in to what we are doing and we have been doing it together.

"I have heard so many critics talking about how people were going to be traded, [how] we are trying to lose on purpose to get a better draft pick. Whatever. But we soak it in and use it as motivation."

We should send DD a link to this thread, lots of motivation for him

[stooley]

Hmm. This has been nice guys. Interesting reads.

[mcHAPPY]

Shocked that no one posted this already, but SI's Chris Mannix has a Demar piece from yesterday.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba...ronto-raptors/


Great quote from the end:

"Everyone on this team is resilient," DeRozan said. "We use all the negativity, all the critics. Everyone here wants to win. That's the biggest thing. We remember the years not making the playoffs, of being the laughingstock of the league. Everyone in this group bought in to what we are doing and we have been doing it together.

"I have heard so many critics talking about how people were going to be traded, [how] we are trying to lose on purpose to get a better draft pick. Whatever. But we soak it in and use it as motivation."

We should send DD a link to this thread, lots of motivation for him

Who did not buy in?

Rudy