Everything Derozan

[CalgaryRapsFan]

First five games: DeRozan passed on 23% of his drives. AST%: 5.
Last five games: DeRozan passed on 41% of his drives. AST%: 14.

That alone would account for a couple extra passes (and likely potential assists) per game, and strongly suggests that it may have more to do with a different emphasis on DeRozan's part of finding the open man once he's started his attack and the defense starts moving.

It fits the eye test, that whether by maturity, game-plan, or confidence in his teammates, DeRozan is driving more with purpose (and not just the one-dimensional purpose of getting his own shot off).

I think a lot of it is on Casey, and maybe there are slowly signs of improvement, in terms of involving the entire team in each and every play. Whether it's a DeRozan ISO or a JV post-up, how many times have we complained over the past few years that the rest of the team is just standing around? Both DeRozan and JV seem to have been racking up the assists more this year, partly because of their own development, but also because the team seems more engaged when they have the ball and start to operate.

Who knows how much of that is on the other players VS the plays that Casey draws up, but the bottom line is the ball has been moving better this season.

[octothorp]

Also worth noting that despite nearly doubling the number of drive-and-passes he does, his turnover rate in these situations has hardly budged (up from 5% to 6.1%). So they are, for the most part, smart, safe passes as well.

Also, his willingness to pass on drives isn't just good by his standards, it's good on a league-wide standard. With an average 4.0 drive/passes per game, he is 9th in the league in this measure over the last 5 games, and tops amongst non-PGs. In drive/assists, he is 7th overall, and 2nd amongst non-PGs (behind James).

[white men can't jump]

Its simple, players werent making open shots in the first 5 games. Now players are hitting shots.

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Even when posters compliment DeMar with evidence of what he's doing right that's different, and painfully obvious with the eye test as well, it's all on everybody else, not Demar....fml...

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[golden]

First five games: DeRozan passed on 23% of his drives. AST%: 5.
Last five games: DeRozan passed on 41% of his drives. AST%: 14.

That alone would account for a couple extra passes (and likely potential assists) per game, and strongly suggests that it may have more to do with a different emphasis on DeRozan's part of finding the open man once he's started his attack and the defense starts moving.

Yep. Data meets the eye test. It's pretty obvious watching games that DeMar came flying out of the gate wanting to #ProveEm to everybody that he was worth the $150M+ contract. First few games, he was clearly looking to get his at the expense of involving his teammates.

Now that he's briefly led the league in scoring and won POTW and received league-wide accolades, he's relaxed and is getting teammates involved earlier in the possessions. That said, Carroll, Joseph and Patterson started out ice cold, but DeMar's early approach wasn't doing anything to help them get into a shooting rhythm, if not keep them in a funk.

[3inthekeon]

It fits the eye test, that whether by maturity, game-plan, or confidence in his teammates, DeRozan is driving more with purpose (and not just the one-dimensional purpose of getting his own shot off).

I think a lot of it is on Casey, and maybe there are slowly signs of improvement, in terms of involving the entire team in each and every play. Whether it's a DeRozan ISO or a JV post-up, how many times have we complained over the past few years that the rest of the team is just standing around? Both DeRozan and JV seem to have been racking up the assists more this year, partly because of their own development, but also because the team seems more engaged when they have the ball and start to operate.

Who knows how much of that is on the other players VS the plays that Casey draws up, but the bottom line is the ball has been moving better this season.

The answer to this is "a lot". But I disagree with the premise that there should be a ton of cutting and movement in these situations. It's much easier to hit a stationary target than a moving one. Neither JV or DD are natural passers (though both have improved). When they make their moves, and draw in a second defender, hitting a guy standing in the corner for an open 3 is a much simpler play that trying to hit a cutter. Less chance for a turnover and is a very high percentage shot. Not saying we should never cut, but I think there are reasons why we don't as much as other teams.

[tDotted]

Also worth noting that despite nearly doubling the number of drive-and-passes he does, his turnover rate in these situations has hardly budged (up from 5% to 6.1%). So they are, for the most part, smart, safe passes as well.

Also, his willingness to pass on drives isn't just good by his standards, it's good on a league-wide standard. With an average 4.0 drive/passes per game, he is 9th in the league in this measure over the last 5 games, and tops amongst non-PGs. In drive/assists, he is 7th overall, and 2nd amongst non-PGs (behind James).

He also rarely turns over the ball on drives. Last season he was one of the top guys in that area and this season he's been doing the same.

[The Great One]

Close call. We have to remind ourselves that the best player Bosh ever played with was Mike James....

Mike James? c'mon now.

I think it's Calderon. Calderon in his prime was pretty underrated. The only issue with Jose was, he was a terrible defender.

I think Bargnani is better than James too. Bargnani was pretty solid in his first 3 years here.

Anthony Parker, MoPete, TJ Ford, Jorge Garbajosa...these are all good players. Bosh had a pretty good supporting cast here and he couldn't lead them anywhere. Never came close to winning a playoff round.

My top 5 Raptors of all time:

1. VC



2. Lowry
3. DeRozan
4. Bosh
5. Stoudamire/Davis <---- close call

[Lupe]

Yep. Data meets the eye test. It's pretty obvious watching games that DeMar came flying out of the gate wanting to #ProveEm to everybody that he was worth the $150M+ contract. First few games, he was clearly looking to get his at the expense of involving his teammates.

Now that he's briefly led the league in scoring and won POTW and received league-wide accolades, he's relaxed and is getting teammates involved earlier in the possessions. That said, Carroll, Joseph and Patterson started out ice cold, but DeMar's early approach wasn't doing anything to help them get into a shooting rhythm, if not keep them in a funk.

He was justified in shooting as much as he was given the percentages he was shooting and how poorly others were shooting. Let's not be revisionist about this, he was scoring around 35pppg on nearly 60 TS%. You want a guy like that taking shots and he was the main reason we won a lot of those games early on.

[McRealistic]

I don't consider Vince the greatest Raptor because he just did not want to be here. He even said that he did not play hard every night and ... He is a GREAT Player but not the greatest Raptor of all time.

Bosh did not win as much as DD and he had plenty of help.

To me DD is the best Raptor of all time along side KL for the moment but in fe years he will surpass him.

[slaw]

Yep. Data meets the eye test. It's pretty obvious watching games that DeMar came flying out of the gate wanting to #ProveEm to everybody that he was worth the $150M+ contract. First few games, he was clearly looking to get his at the expense of involving his teammates.

Now that he's briefly led the league in scoring and won POTW and received league-wide accolades, he's relaxed and is getting teammates involved earlier in the possessions. That said, Carroll, Joseph and Patterson started out ice cold, but DeMar's early approach wasn't doing anything to help them get into a shooting rhythm, if not keep them in a funk.

Couldn't it just be that he was on absolute fire to start the year and couldn't miss and now that defenses have adjusted to try and stop him he's passing to open teammates?

Why does everything positive around this guy have to come complete with the absolutely most uncharitable spin possible about his motivations?

[Chr1s1anL]

It's not that simple. His potential assists have gone up a lot from 6.2 to 10.2. A potential assist is when you pass to someone and they ATTEMPT a shot that if they made it would result in an assist. Has nothing to do with actually making the shot.

However it's also not as simple as him passing more like some people have said because is passes per game have barely increased. Just seems like the shooters and cutters are finding better quality looks within the offense.

Defences are doubling him more now. Teams have to pick thier poison now. Leave Debo in one on one coverage and watch him go off for 30+ and lose or send a double and hope his teammates miss open shots.

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[Nilanka]

Mike James? c'mon now.

I think it's Calderon. Calderon in his prime was pretty underrated. The only issue with Jose was, he was a terrible defender.

I think Bargnani is better than James too. Bargnani was pretty solid in his first 3 years here.

Anthony Parker, MoPete, TJ Ford, Jorge Garbajosa...these are all good players. Bosh had a pretty good supporting cast here and he couldn't lead them anywhere. Never came close to winning a playoff round.

My top 5 Raptors of all time:

1. VC



2. Lowry
3. DeRozan
4. Bosh
5. Stoudamire/Davis <---- close call

I was being facetious mentioning Mike James. But none of the guys mentioned above are in Lowry's tier. They're all role players.

The point is DeRozan has help that Bosh never had.

[DanH]

The answer to this is "a lot". But I disagree with the premise that there should be a ton of cutting and movement in these situations. It's much easier to hit a stationary target than a moving one. Neither JV or DD are natural passers (though both have improved). When they make their moves, and draw in a second defender, hitting a guy standing in the corner for an open 3 is a much simpler play that trying to hit a cutter. Less chance for a turnover and is a very high percentage shot. Not saying we should never cut, but I think there are reasons why we don't as much as other teams.

JV is definitely far better at hitting cutters than he is trying to make a pass out to the perimeter on the move. He's made most of his best passes to cutters - he tends to have an eye for the paint and is most willing to pass to cutters in my view. I agree that for DD finding perimeter shooters is his sweet spot (though he's shown an eye for a cutting Carroll as well), but for JV post-ups the team is better off trying to keep the attention of the defence by moving and cutting off the ball than to hope JV can navigate a double to make a long pass. A post double is actually a great time to cut - the pass doesn't need to be a bullet cross court to avoid defenders poaching it, and rim defence is limited with two near-rim defenders already on the ball.

[Chr1s1anL]

Couldn't it just be that he was on absolute fire to start the year and couldn't miss and now that defenses have adjusted to try and stop him he's passing to open teammates?

Why does everything positive around this guy have to come complete with the absolutely most uncharitable spin possible about his motivations?

I've always wondered about this too. People on here try too hard to make Debo seem selfish and a bad teammate. Even though everything about his character tells you different.

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[Lupe]

Couldn't it just be that he was on absolute fire to start the year and couldn't miss and now that defenses have adjusted to try and stop him he's passing to open teammates?

Why does everything positive around this guy have to come complete with the absolutely most uncharitable spin possible about his motivations?

Yeah I thought that comment was really unfair. I really don't know why we would assume the worst about his motivations. He's a scorer. If you're a scorer and realize you're on fire you're going to milk that, and that's exactly what he did. That's not about trying to chuck to justify a contract it's about doing your job as well as you possibly could. Really not sure it's fair to be trying to spin Jordan-level play against a player.


Back to the topic of greatness, with DeMar I think his ranking depends on how highly you weigh intangibles like loyalty, winning, role and longevity in particular among others. Clearly if you're just looking at production and efficiency he's the 4th best player out of Vince, Bosh, Lowry and himself. But weighing all those factors I think when it's all said and done he'll have a legitimate case for #1 in terms of all-time great Raptors. If you just want to go off how good the player actually was then Vince isn't getting eclipsed by anybody until another true superstar comes along for this team, there was a legitimate debate about who was better between him and Kobe for a bit when he was here.

I think it's wrong to ignore those factors though or not give them a lot of weight.