Everything Derozan

[JWash]

Uh no. Artest had 2 seasons where he shot 41.1% and 42.6% from 16-23 feet. You're including a 3rd "year" which was actually only 7 games in Indiana lol because he got suspended.

Prior to Artest's 3PT leap at age 27, he shot an average of about 38.1% from 16-23 feet. Coincidentally, DeRozan is at 37.9%.

Not guaranteeing he's going to pull an Artest, but JRice definitely raises a case that shows it's possible to make that leap.

Regarding the 38.1% from 16-23 feet pre-27 from Artest, that's not totally accurate. I just averaged the years where he actually played a lot of games, didn't take the total FGM/FGA because that would involve math that I don't feel like doing lol, i figured it'd be close enough.

[Barolt]

Uh no. Artest had 2 seasons where he shot 41.1% and 42.6% from 16-23 feet. You're including a 3rd "year" which was actually only 7 games in Indiana lol because he got suspended.

Prior to Artest's 3PT leap at age 27, he shot an average of about 38.1% from 16-23 feet. Coincidentally, DeRozan is at 37.9%.

Not guaranteeing he's going to pull an Artest, but JRice definitely raises a case that shows it's possible to make that leap.

Good catch, I missed that the third season was only 7 games. Fair points.

Artest was also assisted on 80% of his 3pt makes in his career, and I've been saying for a week or two that DeMar isn't terrible on set, assisted 3s. It's the pull-ups that he's not good at, and shouldn't be taking.

[JWash]

Good catch, I missed that the third season was only 7 games. Fair points.

Artest was also assisted on 80% of his 3pt makes in his career, and I've been saying for a week or two that DeMar isn't terrible on set, assisted 3s. It's the pull-ups that he's not good at, and shouldn't be taking.

I tend to agree with you on this.

Small sample size, but DeRozan is shooting 39.6% on catch and shoot 3s this season. (0.5/1.1 per game).

32.8% last year on 1.0 attempts.
34.2% the year before on 2.0 attempts.

We may be onto something here....

[JWash]

Wait a sec...

DeRozan can already make catch and shoot threes. I mean he's not great at them, but he's passable... he can definitely hit them at a decent clip.

The problem is he torpedoes his percentage by taking too many pull-ups threes (17.9% on 0.7 attempts per game, which is like over 1/3 of his threes).

Even guys like Ross (18.8%) and 2Pat (16.7%) suck at shooting pull-up threes (because it's extremely difficult... like probably the most difficult shot in basketball) but it doesn't hurt their percentages because they hardly take any (0.4 and 0.1 which is a tiny proportion of their total 3PT attempts).

Lowry for some reason also loves taking pull-up 3s like DeMar even though he also shoots a bad-albeit-better percentage there (28.1% on 3.0 attempts per game).

[Barolt]

I tend to agree with you on this.

Small sample size, but DeRozan is shooting 39.6% on catch and shoot 3s this season. (0.5/1.1 per game).

32.8% last year on 1.0 attempts.
34.2% the year before on 2.0 attempts.

We may be onto something here....

Which still isn't an 'elite' percentage, to be fair. Most 3pt shooters shoot a considerably higher percentage on catch and shoot 3s. But it's an adequate percentage, which is all he really needs.

You can go through his stats though, and see where it comes from. 38.8% off 0 dribbles, 42.9% with 6+ feet of seperation.

The thing is, he takes 0.7 pull-up 3s per game, which he only hits 17.9% of. That shot just needs to disappear from his repertoire.

The hard thing for DeMar sometimes seems to be trusting another player to create his offense. It's another step for him maturing, which seems to be coming along better this year.

[A.I]

Wait a sec...

DeRozan can already make catch and shoot threes. I mean he's not great at them, but he's passable... he can definitely hit them at a decent clip.

The problem is he torpedoes his percentage by taking too many pull-ups threes (17.9% on 0.7 attempts per game, which is like over 1/3 of his threes).

Even guys like Ross (18.8%) and 2Pat (16.7%) suck at shooting pull-up threes (because it's extremely difficult... like probably the most difficult shot in basketball) but it doesn't hurt their percentages because they hardly take any (0.4 and 0.1 which is a tiny proportion of their total 3PT attempts).

Lowry for some reason also loves taking pull-up 3s like DeMar even though he also shoots a bad-albeit-better percentage there (28.1% on 3.0 attempts per game).

Yeah, Curry makes it look easy.

[Barolt]

Interestingly, looking into it, the thought has always been that the lack of assists generated by our 'offensive system'(in quotes because it doesn't really exist) doesn't hurt Lowry and DeMar as much as it hurts everyone else. But looking at DeMar's three point numbers, perhaps the lack of assists actually hurts him more, because it's created the perception he's a worse three point shooter than he actually is?

Honestly, the more I look into our team and find that 1-12, almost everyone should be better than they are, the more I'm convinced that the only thing holding us back from potentially becoming a title contender is Dwane Casey.

It's not a question of how do we get there by trade, but a question of why aren't we better as we're constructed?

We have two players who are top 5 at their position in Lowry and DeMar, a young center with true superstar potential in JV. Above average starters in Scola and Carroll. Solid bench players who've shown the capability to be very good in Patterson, Joseph and Ross, and a solid defensive backup center in Bismack.

Yes, we're a 45-55 win team that might make the ECF as constructed, but with our talent shouldn't we be better than that?

[3inthekeon]

Still, the question of accountability has always been one of Casey's issues. DeMar/Kyle can take possessions off/have awful offensive possessions and know they'll never be held accountable for it with Casey as the coach.

Does Casey hold them accountable in private though? Because that's was supposedly the accountability issue Blatt had , holding other players accountable during game film time but not Lebron. Some coaches call out their players in public. Casey rarely does (and when he has, we've said he threw the player under the bus). Some coaches bench players or entire lineups. Pops and Carlisle can do that cause they're Pops and Carlisle. Skiles does that and it works for a while until his players get sick of it and he's unemployed again.

Maybe there is an accountability issue with Casey, but he's not a good enough coach to still have his job, and players respect, if he wasn't holding players accountable in some fashion.

[Barolt]

Does Casey hold them accountable in private though? Because that's was supposedly the accountability issue Blatt had , holding other players accountable during game film time but not Lebron. Some coaches call out their players in public. Casey rarely does (and when he has, we've said he threw the player under the bus). Some coaches bench players or entire lineups. Pops and Carlisle can do that cause they're Pops and Carlisle. Skiles does that and it works for a while until his players get sick of it and he's unemployed again.

Maybe there is an accountability issue with Casey, but he's not a good enough coach to still have his job, and players respect, if he wasn't holding players accountable in some fashion.

Accountability without consequences isn't accountability. Just ask any parent.

If he's holding them accountable in private, what're the consequences for, for example, Lowry's awful pull-up 3s with 17 seconds on the clock?

[Jrice9]

Which still isn't an 'elite' percentage, to be fair. Most 3pt shooters shoot a considerably higher percentage on catch and shoot 3s. But it's an adequate percentage, which is all he really needs.

You can go through his stats though, and see where it comes from. 38.8% off 0 dribbles, 42.9% with 6+ feet of seperation.

The thing is, he takes 0.7 pull-up 3s per game, which he only hits 17.9% of. That shot just needs to disappear from his repertoire.

The hard thing for DeMar sometimes seems to be trusting another player to create his offense. It's another step for him maturing, which seems to be coming along better this year.

I'd be curious if these pull up threes for DeMar are mostly end of clock. I do notice that stars in general and DeMar and Lowry in particular (Because they are the stars of this team) take the shitty end of clock shots where others teammates bail to them. I don't have any data (Though if anyone could provide that for me) but if this is true this isn't DeMar's fault but kind of just a natural progression of his role. (Much like how he and Lowry do all the end of quarter heaves)

[Barolt]

I'd be curious if these pull up threes for DeMar are mostly end of clock. I do notice that stars in general and DeMar and Lowry in particular (Because they are the stars of this team) take the shitty end of clock shots where others teammates bail to them. I don't have any data (Though if anyone could provide that for me) but if this is true this isn't DeMar's fault but kind of just a natural progression of his role. (Much like how he and Lowry do all the end of quarter heaves)

He actually hits 3s at a 38.5% clip when shooting with less than 4 seconds on the shot clock. 44.4% with 7-4 seconds remaining.

15-7 seconds on the clock, he hits 21.1%.

ShotClock Off situations, 13.3%.

I'd argue he shouldn't be taking end of game shots, because even in the best of light, he isn't a good shooter, just an adequate one. His game doesn't require more than adequate though, just that him taking 3s with the game on the line isn't the best decision making.

So, I would say... probably not?

[3inthekeon]

Accountability without consequences isn't accountability. Just ask any parent.

If he's holding them accountable in private, what're the consequences for, for example, Lowry's awful pull-up 3s with 17 seconds on the clock?

How would I or anyone here know what consequences are when they're done in private?

Maybe the consequence is being forced to play 35 min+ the next game.

[Barolt]

How would I or anyone here know what consequences are when they're done in private?

Maybe the consequence is being forced to play 35 min+ the next game.

That's not really a 'consequence' though. Given it's a contract year for DeMar, playing more means making more money.

[3inthekeon]

That's not really a 'consequence' though. Given it's a contract year for DeMar, playing more means making more money.

It was a joke.

[Barolt]

It was a joke.

My bad.

I just think the idea that guys are being held accountable in private kinda silly.

When Lowry kills an offensive run by running down and firing a pull-up contested 3 with 17 on the shot clock, he should be pulled. Don't wait til the film session.

When DeMar dribbles for 10 seconds then fires a contested 20ft pull-up, he should be pulled.

Anyone else on the team would be.