Everything Derozan

[Barolt]

If you want to explain one to me Dan, DeMar only has 83 transition possessions all season, less than 2 per game. He's also only generating 1.08 PPP on those. The only players getting less of their possessions in transition are JV and Bismack. It feels to me like he used to get more transition buckets, but I can't find the stat anywhere.

[DanH]

If you want to explain one to me Dan, DeMar only has 83 transition possessions all season, less than 2 per game. He's also only generating 1.08 PPP on those. The only players getting less of their possessions in transition are JV and Bismack. It feels to me like he used to get more transition buckets, but I can't find the stat anywhere.

Yeah he did used to get more transition baskets. Unfortunately the NBA play tracker doesn't show past season data.

But I did an article on DD last season on his play types in late February. He used 10% of his plays in transition (down to 8% this year) and had a tremendous 128 ORTG on those plays (108 this year, as you point out).

I think it is likely the team as a whole is down as well (bottom 10 in transition frequency this year). The current system is less scrambling and gambling and more beating guys to spots and protecting the rim. Last year's team generated a ton of steals and ran at every opportunity, while this year's system keeps guys off the offensive boards and doesn't rely on turnovers to stop teams, so breakouts are rare (though they do happen occasionally as seen with the bench these last few weeks).

I'm actually happy about this - transition scoring is one of the things that gets choked out in certain playoff matchups and having a team that can score in the half court without needing that to succeed is pretty key. The good news is that we are still near the top of the league in generating points when we do strike in transition, so if the opportunity arises we take advantage - really pressures teams to bail on offensive boards and get back, further boosting our defence.

[JawsGT]

Definitely, but it's not normal to only have so little spread of playmaking usage. For instance, Golden State has 6 players who average at least 5% playmaking usage, and Ezeli is the only player below 4%.

Cleveland has 6 players above 5% playmaking usage as well, and only 2 below 4%.

We have 4 over 5%(JJ being the 4th), and 3 players including 2 starters(Carroll and JV) below 5%. Keep in mind, playmaking usage only tracks against time on court, so the games they missed don't count against them here.

Also, as I've posted before, one of the problems with our passing falls into the triangle problem. Over 50% of DeMar's passes are to Scola or Lowry, over 50% of Lowry's passes are to Scola and DeMar, and over 60% of Scola's passes are to Lowry and DeMar. How's anyone else supposed to be involved if those 3 are on the floor?

I don't really know what you are arguing anymore. The conversation seemed to start about Demar's passing, specifically to JV, now it has veered to a team thing. Is Demar not doing enough? Or is it all our ball handlers? And what about the triangle angle? It shouldn't be a surprise really. Scola's passes should be to Lowry or Demar, as they are the playmakers and Scola, not being a playmaker, will logically be passing to playmakers. And Scola is the most open player on the floor, so no surprise he is getting a bulk of passes from the playmakers. And Demar and Lowry do have some great chemistry together but often make some needless passes on the perimeter, as well as passes that reset the play when the other guy can't gain an advantage.

Now I do agree that JV needs the ball more. Lowry and Demar can both be better at getting him the ball, in the post but specifically the PnR. And I think they will if they continue playing together in the foreseeable future. But JV rarely is the easiest target in the PnR, as defences are usually weary of him, and the drive and kick that ensues is used mainly to generate 3's. And the boys some times miss him when he is the easy target for sure, but I think they are getting better and more comfortable with it. I know it seems like these guys have been together long enough to have figured it out but I think they will get there.

And honestly, I think both Patterson and Ross have had plenty of opportunity to make plays this season, whether it be shooting or otherwise. Ditto for Carroll and JJ and Biyombo. I'd like to hear more on how you expect these guys to make more plays? And I love what we have been seeing from Patterson and Ross lately, both of whom aren't just taking 3's, but occasionally putting it on the floor and finishing closer to the basket or making a pass. That needs to continue in order for this team to compete in the playoffs. But they both have had opportunities, do you really feel they deserve more? And if so, how? Do we need to use these guys as ball handlers? And Carroll's shot chart is brutal inside the arc, he was getting the ball enough when he was playing. JJ I honestly don't care if he even plays. We should start JV, Pat, DD, Ross, Lowry and give JJ some ball handling duties with the second unit until Carroll returns, and then not play him at all or very little.

I'm not sure that what you are describing is a personnel problem or a system problem.

[Barolt]

My biggest two 'system' arguments as far as getting JV the ball are that he needs to be used as the roll man in the PnR more, and that he needs to be used from the elbow more. For how good he's been in limited elbow touches, there's simply no reason for them to be so rare.

[JawsGT]

My biggest two 'system' arguments as far as getting JV the ball are that he needs to be used as the roll man in the PnR more, and that he needs to be used from the elbow more. For how good he's been in limited elbow touches, there's simply no reason for them to be so rare.

I agree with both of those things. I can understand the desire to see more now, I feel that way as well. Sometimes it feels like I'm being teased with this team. There seems to be some untapped potential, and most of that surrounds JV. But I think he is 2-3 seasons from even sniffing his prime. There probably is little reason to rush it. Derozan is still figuring things out too, and he is, what, 3 years older than JV.

But I'm still curious as to your overall thoughts on the teams passing. You have looked into the trends thoroughly it seems. Do we need different players, whether that be Lowry and Derozan as ball handlers/playmakers, or role players that can do more with the ball? Or do we need a different style? Or can the development of Jonas in the post and elbows be the catalyst for more ball movement?

I don't want to veer to far off topic in this thread, but I am curious to your thoughts.

[Barolt]

I agree with both of those things. I can understand the desire to see more now, I feel that way as well. Sometimes it feels like I'm being teased with this team. There seems to be some untapped potential, and most of that surrounds JV. But I think he is 2-3 seasons from even sniffing his prime. There probably is little reason to rush it. Derozan is still figuring things out too, and he is, what, 3 years older than JV.

But I'm still curious as to your overall thoughts on the teams passing. You have looked into the trends thoroughly it seems. Do we need different players, whether that be Lowry and Derozan as ball handlers/playmakers, or role players that can do more with the ball? Or do we need a different style? Or can the development of Jonas in the post and elbows be the catalyst for more ball movement?

I don't want to veer to far off topic in this thread, but I am curious to your thoughts.

The passing thing is interesting to me. Because there's been this mantra surrounding our team that we don't have the personnel to be a good passing team, and it's a pervasive idea because our primary ball handlers in DeMar, Lowry and Joseph are all really good without being in a great passing environment.

However, over the last 10 games there's been a lot written, by a lot of people, about the success of the Lowry-Joseph-Ross-Patterson-Biyombo unit. The most interesting thing to me about that group isn't their defense(which is astoundingly good, best 5-man unit in the league that's played 100+ minutes), it's the fact that they assist on 63.4% of all baskets when they're on the floor, and have a true shooting percentage of 59.9%.

To put those numbers in perspective, only two teams in the league, Atlanta and Golden State, assist on a higher percentage of baskets, and the highest true shooting percentage is Golden State's 59.4%. Now, the obvious disclaimers are that those numbers for the Lowry+Bench group are often against opposing benches, and aren't sustainable for the full 48 minutes. However, those numbers are also without DeMar on the floor, who's a fantastic passer, and with Bismack out there instead of JV, which is a huge downgrade in playmaking capabilities.

So the question becomes not, can we pass, but why don't we? The stats point to DeMar, and they're skewing more that way during this winning streak, where we have an assist rate of 45.6% with him on the floor and 62.6% when he's off. But I don't think it's that simple.

I think, for whatever reason, the coaching staff has told DeMar that when he's out on the floor with the bench guys he should 'get his', because if you read the body language of the other players on the floor they aren't expecting the pass, which they are when Lowry's there instead.

So to me it comes down to, could DeMar be a better passer? For sure, decision making and trusting his teammates were his biggest needs coming into this season, and have been huge areas of improvement this year, but there's still a ways to go.

However, what we really need is an offensive system that demands and rewards moving the ball and putting players in a position to succeed offensively, which is what the Lowry+Bench group does and the rest of our lineups simply aren't doing to a significant enough degree. For Lowry and DeMar, this is ok because they can create shots for themselves regardless of system. For everyone else, it means they don't have the ball in their hands enough to know how effective they really can be.

[JWash]

I see what you are arguing with the coaching style is the primary reason why we dont use JV

But realistically, how often does a player in his prime after signing a max deal take a step back and pass off the focal point of the offense to a younger player? Never

If DD resigns, it will be the same shit

The point is the focal point doesn't need to be passed we just need to utilize jv more. The problem isn't derozan it's that the offensive game plan often has jv as the 4th or 5th scoring option on the court.

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[Snooch]

The point is the focal point doesn't need to be passed we just need to utilize jv more. The problem isn't derozan it's that the offensive game plan often has jv as the 4th or 5th scoring option on the court.

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that is because the system is designed to maximize demar,.

[JWash]

that is because the system is designed to maximize demar,.

False. The system merely uses demar and lowry a lot but it absolutely does not put them in the most efficient positions or even lineups to score and create for teammates.

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[Axel]

False. The system merely uses demar and lowry a lot but it absolutely does not put them in the most efficient positions or even lineups to score and create for teammates.

I don't think efficiency is necessarily the same thing as focal point. Seems like two completely different things.

Saying the offence is designed to get them more looks is not the same thing as saying the offence is designed to get them good looks. Quantity vs quality.

[Snooch]

False. The system merely uses demar and lowry a lot but it absolutely does not put them in the most efficient positions or even lineups to score and create for teammates.

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False. Casey himself has stated about having systems that maximize players abilities.

Seriousy


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[Jrice9]

False. Casey himself has stated about having systems that maximize players abilities.

Seriousy


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I'm surprised I have to anti-Casey people that just because Casey says something doesn't mean he's right. lol

[Snooch]

I'm surprised I have to anti-Casey people that just because Casey says something doesn't mean he's right. lol

sigh, so casey is wrong, and the system he runs is not meant to maximize demar effectiveness, and that article by lowe recently stating the same thing was incorrect as well and Demar excells in spite of said system and JV just isnt calling for the ball enough.....


sigh

[DanH]

sigh, so casey is wrong, and the system he runs is not meant to maximize demar effectiveness, and that article by lowe recently stating the same thing was incorrect as well and Demar excells in spite of said system and JV just isnt calling for the ball enough.....


sigh

Meant to maximize? Yes, it is meant to maximize DD's output. But that doesn't mean it succeeds in maximizing DD's output.

[Snooch]

Meant to maximize? Yes, it is meant to maximize DD's output. But that doesn't mean it succeeds in maximizing DD's output.

that was never part of the discussion.

the discussion was to why JV gets so few touches, to which I responded about the system which indicates as to JVs "pecking order" to which I was told that the system was not dsesigned to maximize demar...and now that the system does not do a good job of maximizing demar.....

so where do the constant shifting of counterpoints end?

That GS is a better team, that is why JV gets so few offensive opportunities.


and from ther it will be purple dinosaur lollipop fudgesicle.