Everything Derozan

[DanH]

I think what was being debated was not whether the system is designed to have them facilitate the offense, but whether it is designed to "Maximize" their effectiveness and efficiency. I think.

I only took issue with the assertion that IF the system is designed to have guards as the focal points, the C is thereby relegated to 4th/5th option status when clearly 3rd option status is very achievable since Jonas is already carrying the third highest usage among the starters.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I think what was being debated was not whether the system is designed to have them facilitate the offense, but whether it is designed to "Maximize" their effectiveness and efficiency. I think.

Seemed more like semantics, and perhaps a poor choice of words.

DeRozan and Lowry have been the team's best (and proven) scorers, and Casey isn't exactly an offensive mastermind, so I understand his decision to simplify the offensive system and rely on the backcourt duo to carry the team offensively. There have been many games where the two of them accounted for practically half the team's shot attempts, so I think it could be argued that such a system maximizes their opportunity (definitely not efficiency, that would be a system where only dunks are allowed).

The bottom line is that the current offensive system revolves around the two of them, with everybody else playing a supporting role, whether it's as a floor-spreader, rebounder or defender.

[Joey]

The bottom line is that the current offensive system revolves around the two of them, with everybody else playing a supporting role, whether it's as a floor-spreader, rebounder or defender.

Of course there is no denying any of that; but when its stated that Caseys system is designed to "maximize" Demar, I think there is certainly room to debate that claim, especially when the intent is prove that in any other system he will be less effective and productive.

[OldSkoolCool]

I only took issue with the assertion that IF the system is designed to have guards as the focal points, the C is thereby relegated to 4th/5th option status when clearly 3rd option status is very achievable since Jonas is already carrying the third highest usage among the starters.

I think Usage is a flawed stat for a players involvment in the offense...

Correct me if Im wrong but loosely, usage is determined based on the percentage of box score possessions that the player uses for the team.

Now for JV that means - dont touch the ball and when you have an open shot beneath the hoop, we might pass it to you.

What it means for DD is - dribble dribble dribble, reverse dribble, pass, get ball back, use screen dribble dribble. Now ball makes two passes from him, and his usage on that possession is not accounted for

Their usage is only 8-9% apart, but their roles in the offense couldnt be further.

I think a more accurate portrayal of the offense is time of possession+front court touches...and even then, a lot of JVs touches come out of the 3 man weave.

[S.R.]

Here's something - DeMar's FGA USG (% of the team's FG's he takes while on the court) is 13th in the league among starters. He takes a lower percentage of his team's shots than Cousins, Curry, Wade, Kobe, Blake, Lillard, Irving, LBJ, Westbrook, Harden, Okafor, and PG.

[Barolt]

Of course there is no denying any of that; but when its stated that Caseys system is designed to "maximize" Demar, I think there is certainly room to debate that claim, especially when the intent is prove that in any other system he will be less effective and productive.

I think it's clear the system is designed to maximize DeMar, it's less clear whether or not it works to that effect.

[Barolt]

Here's something - DeMar's FGA USG (% of the team's FG's he takes while on the court) is 13th in the league among starters. He takes a lower percentage of his team's shots than Cousins, Curry, Wade, Kobe, Blake, Lillard, Irving, LBJ, Westbrook, Harden, Okafor, and PG.

When you remove point guards from the equation, DeMar has the 9th highest 'true usage' in the league, behind only Harden, James, Holiday, Evans, Wade, Cousins, Griffin and George.

James, Harden, Holiday, Evans and Wade all function as the primary playmakers for their teams regardless of position, leaving just 3 players: Cousins, Griffin and George.

I'd say it's hardly debatable to say that those three are all more talented players than DeMar.

[JWash]

When you remove point guards from the equation, DeMar has the 9th highest 'true usage' in the league, behind only Harden, James, Holiday, Evans, Wade, Cousins, Griffin and George.

James, Harden, Holiday, Evans and Wade all function as the primary playmakers for their teams regardless of position, leaving just 3 players: Cousins, Griffin and George.

I'd say it's hardly debatable to say that those three are all more talented players than DeMar.

Where else would you expect him to rank? I can't think of anyone else who I'd expect to have higher usage than DeMar besides PGs and those guys you listed.

And also you say Holiday and Evans function as the primary playmakers for their teams.... they're on the same team so does DeMar not function as one of the primary playmakers on this team?

[Barolt]

Where else would you expect him to rank? I can't think of anyone else who I'd expect to have higher usage than DeMar besides PGs and those guys you listed.

And also you say Holiday and Evans function as the primary playmakers for their teams.... they're on the same team so does DeMar not function as one of the primary playmakers on this team?

Of the guys I mentioned, DeMar has the 3rd lowest playmaking usage rate, at 11.4%. The only guys lower are George and Cousins. Holiday has a playmaking usage of 19.1%, Evans of 20.3%.

EDIT: Also, while Evans and Holiday play for the same team, they don't play together that often. Evans plays 30.6 minutes per game, Holiday plays 25.5 minutes per game, but they only share the court for an average of 12.6 minutes per game.

[S.R.]

When you remove point guards from the equation, DeMar has the 9th highest 'true usage' in the league, behind only Harden, James, Holiday, Evans, Wade, Cousins, Griffin and George.

James, Harden, Holiday, Evans and Wade all function as the primary playmakers for their teams regardless of position, leaving just 3 players: Cousins, Griffin and George.

I'd say it's hardly debatable to say that those three are all more talented players than DeMar.

I'm not following your point.

DeMar was just being criticized for how much he shoots - I pointed out that a guy producing the 9th most PPG in the league is actually 13th in terms of % of his team's shots he takes. Not really a problem.

[Barolt]

I'm not following your point.

DeMar was just being criticized for how much he shoots - I pointed out that a guy producing the 9th most PPG in the league is actually 13th in terms of % of his team's shots he takes. Not really a problem.

I agree with you to some extent. The part I disagree with is that I don't think DeMar's at his best when he's creating for himself, I think he's at his best when he's actively creating for others as well, not, as our coach would say, 'only looking for others when he has to'.

There's been stretches this season where DeMar drives into the paint actively trying to use his penetration to open up the game for other guys, and he's brilliant when he does that. There's also stretches where he drives to the paint, gets in the air, realizes he doesn't have a good shot and tries to make an emergency pass, and he's awful when he does that.

A better coach would minimize the instances of the second while maximizing the first, especially since we have a bunch of very good spot up players to put around DeMar, but that doesn't appear to be how we gameplan.

[JWash]

Of the guys I mentioned, DeMar has the 3rd lowest playmaking usage rate, at 11.4%. The only guys lower are George and Cousins. Holiday has a playmaking usage of 19.1%, Evans of 20.3%.

Idk but maybe just maybe that has something to do with being the first option scorer on his team.

DeRozan also has by far the lowest time of possession % (11.0%) among himself and the other players ranked ahead of him in usage, most of them are over 20%. The only ones lower are George, Griffin and Cousins. So maybe that has more to do with those 4 guys being used as quick hit scorers first and foremost and not being asked to play point guard out there?

I'm just wondering what the point/purpose is of bringing up these stats. A SG/SF a SF/PF and two power forwards, have the lowest playmaking rate among the players with high usage. Is that meant to be a revelation? I mean a few spots down from DeMar is Durant who has a lower playmaking usage. This isn't surprising. Yes these guys are used as playmakers but their job first and foremost is to score the basketball on high usage.

[JWash]

I agree with you to some extent. The part I disagree with is that I don't think DeMar's at his best when he's creating for himself, I think he's at his best when he's actively creating for others as well, not, as our coach would say, 'only looking for others when he has to'.

There's been stretches this season where DeMar drives into the paint actively trying to use his penetration to open up the game for other guys, and he's brilliant when he does that. There's also stretches where he drives to the paint, gets in the air, realizes he doesn't have a good shot and tries to make an emergency pass, and he's awful when he does that.

A better coach would minimize the instances of the second while maximizing the first, especially since we have a bunch of very good spot up players to put around DeMar, but that doesn't appear to be how we gameplan.

You neglected to mention the 3rd part where he gets into the lane and scores or draws a foul, which should be the first option when a scorer is driving the basketball. Obviously you make your reads and look for the pass as well, but if you're driving into the defense like that you had better have scoring intent.

Right now you're trying to criticize him for doing what he's supposed to do. DeRozan isn't a point guard, he's playmaking at a very good rate for a scoring wing player.

[Barolt]

Idk but maybe just maybe that has something to do with being the first option scorer on his team.

DeRozan also has by far the lowest time of possession % (11.0%) among himself and the other players ranked ahead of him in usage, most of them are over 20%. The only ones lower are George, Griffin and Cousins. So maybe that has more to do with those 4 guys being used as quick hit scorers first and foremost and not being asked to play point guard out there?

I'm just wondering what the point/purpose is of bringing up these stats. A SG/SF a SF/PF and two power forwards, have the lowest playmaking rate among the players with high usage. Is that meant to be a revelation? I mean a few spots down from DeMar is Durant who has a lower playmaking usage. This isn't surprising. Yes these guys are used as playmakers but their job first and foremost is to score the basketball on high usage.

My point is that I'd like to see DeMar's scoring usage go down a few points, and his playmaking usage go up a few points.

[JWash]

My point is that I'd like to see DeMar's scoring usage go down a few points, and his playmaking usage go up a few points.

What does that have to do with what S.R. pointed out though? Like I just don't get why that was even brought up.

And DeRozan is supposed to be scoring out there.