Everything Derozan

[Barolt]

This is why I'm very sceptical of advanced stats.

Everyone knows that Ross isn't a SF and cannot guard SFs because he's too weak.

I would like to know how many minutes they actually think Ross is guarding/playing SF.



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They have Ross listed at 30% of his minutes at SF, which makes sense. He plays a lot of minutes with Lowry/Joseph lineups.

Also, he guarded Marcus Morris for a stretch against Detroit and actually did a pretty good job.

[special1]

When it comes to Ross, there's this idea that he plays worse when he plays less minutes because Casey pulls him whenever he's bad. But Casey's in-game adjustments just aren't that good. I think Ross plays worse when he isn't given opportunities, which isn't an unreasonable argument.

When DeMar's shot isn't falling, it would make sense to bench him, because he's a below average defender. Ross is a very good defender by most metrics(nylon calculus' matchup production has him top 10 in the league, he has a very good DFG% and a solid DRtg), so it makes sense to keep him out there regardless of his shot falling.

Casey's rotations often don't make sense, and you've made that argument before. So why are you suddenly assuming Casey is a savant when it comes to Ross' minutes?

I'm with JWash on this one.

I watch all the games and replays and I see it for myself. I rarely see Ross playing really well and get less than 20 minutes.

It's easy for you to say that Casey's rotations don't make sense and point to the starting lineup, but that doesn't prove anything. The bench has had a VERY consistent role almost every game. It may be the reason why they perform so well (which you actually agree, but for some reason fail to give Casey credit for).

It's just common sense that when he plays poorly, he plays less. Look at the stats that you provided....now if he was shooting .50+ in the 10-19 mins range....your argument would make more sense.

It's hard to have a conversation with someone who refuses to use common sense. Your rebuttal is Casey has messed up rotations.....except with the bench, Casey has been as consistent as possible.



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[special1]

They have Ross listed at 30% of his minutes at SF, which makes sense. He plays a lot of minutes with Lowry/Joseph lineups.

Also, he guarded Marcus Morris for a stretch against Detroit and actually did a pretty good job.

Lol

See. Playing against bench players.

Advanced stats don't seem to be able to tell the difference. I would argue the reason Ross' numbers are more consistent this year is because of his current role in the system. You love his numbers but you hate the system that helps him achieve those stats.


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[Barolt]

I'm with JWash on this one.

I watch all the games and replays and I see it for myself. I rarely see Ross playing really well and get less than 20 minutes.

It's easy for you to say that Casey's rotations don't make sense and point to the starting lineup, but that doesn't prove anything. The bench has had a VERY consistent role almost every game. It may be the reason why they perform so well (which you actually agree, but for some reason fail to give Casey credit for).

It's just common sense that when he plays poorly, he plays less. Look at the stats that you provided....now if he was shooting .50+ in the 10-19 mins range....your argument would make more sense.

It's hard to have a conversation with someone who refuses to use common sense. Your rebuttal is Casey has messed up rotations.....except with the bench, Casey has been as consistent as possible.



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Here's why I still disagree. In games where Ross plays 10-19 minutes, he averages 4 FGA. You're telling me that he takes 4 shots, and Casey instantly knows he's playing badly? DeMar's had first quarters where he goes 0/4 or 1/4, that's not necessarily indicative of a bad game.

[Barolt]

Lol

See. Playing against bench players.

Advanced stats don't seem to be able to tell the difference. I would argue the reason Ross' numbers are more consistent this year is because of his current role in the system. You love his numbers but you hate the system that helps him achieve those stats.


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Actually, we have those numbers too.

When playing against lineups with 0-3 starters, Ross' eFG% is 51.1%. When playing against lineups with 4-5 starters, his eFG% is 59.0%.

In fact, on our team, Ross has the best eFG% against starters. DeMar, on the other hand, does shoot better against benches.(by 1.7%)

[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan - Announced as 2016 All-Star selection by Coaches!

Here's why I still disagree. In games where Ross plays 10-19 minutes, he averages 4 FGA. You're telling me that he takes 4 shots, and Casey instantly knows he's playing badly? DeMar's had first quarters where he goes 0/4 or 1/4, that's not necessarily indicative of a bad game.

It is when you're a bench player.

Your comparing our star player (who we know can bounce back) to a guy we've watched disappear in the last two playoffs (and nobody game plans for him).

Demar has earned the right because he's proven that 1 bad quarter does not make a bad game.

Maybe Casey knows Ross better than you do?? I know he does.

Word on the street is that he asked Bryan Collangelo to pick Ross. So your point makes no sense.


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[special1]

Actually, we have those numbers too.

When playing against lineups with 0-3 starters, Ross' eFG% is 51.1%. When playing against lineups with 4-5 starters, his eFG% is 59.0%.

In fact, on our team, Ross has the best eFG% against starters. DeMar, on the other hand, does shoot better against benches.(by 1.7%)

That's fine. But he rarely plays against 5 starters.... So who cares?


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[Barolt]

It is when you're a bench player.

Your comparing our star player (who we know can bounce back) to a guy we've watched disappear in the last two playoffs (and nobody game plans for him).

Demar has earned the right because he's proven that 1 bad quarter does not make a bad game.

Maybe Casey knows Ross better than you do?? I know he does.

Word on the street is that he asked Bryan Collangelo to pick Ross. So you're point makes no sense.


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Come on, you're going to use the line 'disappear in the playoffs' then say DeMar's earned the right?

You've seen DeMar's stats from the playoffs last year, right?

[Barolt]

That's fine. But he rarely plays against 5 starters.... So who cares?


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Nope, he logs 26% of his minutes and takes 22% of his shots against lineups with 4-5 starters. That's a decent sample size, we're talking 200 or so minutes.

[special1]

Come on, you're going to use the line 'disappear in the playoffs' then say DeMar's earned the right?

You've seen DeMar's stats from the playoffs last year, right?

Dude. Without Lowry all Washington did was focus in on Demar. Where was Ross to help take the pressure off?

Ross numbers in 11 career playoff games

.329 fg %
.238 3pt %
11 games
24+ minutes per game
All starts

Demar's numbers in the same 11 career playoff games

.391 fg %
.346 3pt %
11 games
40+ mins per game
All starts

Tell me what I said that was wrong about Ross. The dude disappeared and his defence and 3pt shooting (the only positives he brings) were putrid.

At least Demar has excuses like the defense focussing in on him....Ross totally disappeared. Stop making excuses. Ross is a bench player for a reason.


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[special1]

Nope, he logs 26% of his minutes and takes 22% of his shots against lineups with 4-5 starters. That's a decent sample size, we're talking 200 or so minutes.

I said 5.... Lol

And you're using mins when he was starting for Carroll I'm sure. Most of his minutes are as a bench player.


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[Barolt]

Dude. Without Lowry all Washington did was focus in on Demar. Where was Ross to help take the pressure off?

Ross numbers in 11 career playoff games

.329 fg %
.238 3pt %
11 games
24+ minutes per game
All starts

Demar's numbers in the same 11 career playoff games

.391 fg %
.346 3pt %
11 games
40+ mins per game
All starts

Tell me what I said that was wrong about Ross. The dude disappeared and his defence and 3pt shooting (the only positives he brings) were putrid.

At least Demar has excuses like the defense focussing in on him....Ross totally disappeared. Stop making excuses. Ross is a bench player for a reason.


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They both disappeared last year in the playoffs. Ross as a 22 and 23 year old, DeMar as a 24 and 25 year old. Those are relevant as well. DeMar was supposed to be the star who made the game easier for his teammates. It's on the leaders of the team to make the game easier for other guys. Ross ain't a leader, which means he isn't as good, but also means that when he has a bad game it has less impact than one DeMar has one.

[Barolt]

I said 5.... Lol

And you're using mins when he was starting for Carroll I'm sure. Most of his minutes are as a bench player.


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Ross plays against, on average, 2.52 starters. DeMar plays against, on average, 3.61 starters. So a difference of 1 starter in their average minutes.

[special1]

Ross plays against, on average, 2.52 starters. DeMar plays against, on average, 3.61 starters. So a difference of 1 starter in their average minutes.

That's a significant difference.

That was sorta my point with regards to their stats.


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[Barolt]

That's a significant difference.

That was sorta my point with regards to their stats.


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Yeah, but my point was that Ross really doesn't play against 'only benches'. Just like DeMar doesn't play against 'only starters'.

By the way, DeMar in playmaking mode early tonight, and it looked good on offense.