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  • If anything, I think DeMar could thrive as a playmaker in a better passing system. Realistically, why couldn't he put up James Harden type assist numbers in a system that rewarded and encouraged passing, if we put shooters around him?

    DeMar, Ross, Patterson, Lowry, CoJo, Powell, Wright would all benefit from us playing at a higher pace, for one.
    twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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    • Barolt wrote: View Post
      The stats tell me that 'skill and better basketball playing' can be quantified. As historically great jump shooting and passing.

      Their assist rate is insane, their 3pt shooting percentages are insane, and they play at a really high pace for today's game. They turn the ball over a lot, but just don't care because they still generate enough points.
      Is that what your stat sheet says.... they turn it over because they dont care?

      Have you seen their motion?

      Comment


      • JWash wrote: View Post
        You said this to me during the offseason
        The reason the debate can't be a civil one is that posters like you state under rating as though it is a fact, immediately dismissing the other poster's opinion, and don't provide evidence of why DeRozan provides more than 6-8M of value to his team.

        I'll start. DeRozan has consistently over the past couple years posted average impact ratings (RPM) and as such is an average player worth the average salary. Right now that average is about 6M, and it will go up to a little over 8M next summer.

        See, evidence to support a claim. Now, that's clearly not the entire picture, but it's a concrete start that can be countered.
        I'm sorry, what exactly are you illustrating here? I was demonstrating the use of evidence as the basis for an argument, during a discussion where others argued a very low salary value for DeMar (I did not). I even stated that RPM clearly doesn't tell the whole story, and frankly was presenting a simple piece of evidence expecting it to be countered in a reasonable way (of course it wasn't, in spite of how easy it would have been).
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

        Comment


        • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
          Even the harshest DD critics have never had anything but positive things to say about him as a person, a teammate and a member of the Raptors franchise. His critics have also said, for the most part, that they sincerely hope to be proven wrong because DeRozan has always oozed potential and raw talent, while being such a likable guy.

          The frustration was always about whether or not he would ever 'get it', with regards to learning how to 'play the right way' - ie: smart, efficient basketball.

          Over the past couple years, there has also been more wiggle room worked into the conversation, openly questioning how much of the decision-making coming under criticism has been his fault or Casey's; the consensus seems to have been a combination of the two.

          Going back to the start of his career, off the top of my head, the main observations/criticisms/recommendations have been:

          1. Attack the basket aggressively and don't shy away from contact - he's obviously done a great job of improving in this area over the years, as evidenced by his number of drives and free throw attempts.

          2. Defense matters too - he'll never be a defensive stopper, he rarely covers the better wing, and he still has mental lapses from time to time, but for the most part he's become an average defender with an improving awareness of blocking the passing lanes.

          3. Shooting guards need to shoot the 3 well - this was probably the one area where critics wrote him off, and over the past month or so he's shown signs of improvement. His 3 point shot is still a work in progress, but this is one area where his critics (and some of his supporters too) are likely to be proven wrong... hopefully!

          4. Scoring efficiently - for years the biggest complaint was about forcing his game and taking bad shots, including an unhealthy reliance on what was statistically the worst shot in basketball - the dreaded long-2. This also happens to be one of the biggest differences in his game this season, and the one area where his critics can counter #provem with #toldyouso.

          5. One dimensional scorer - similar to #4, this was also one of the biggest complaints about DeRozan for years. A player simply can't be a net-positive contributor to the team if their only contribution is inefficient scoring. DeRozan has definitely shown signs of becoming a more complete player (ie: assists and rebounds), who can make his teammates better and generate more efficient scoring opportunities for the whole team. This is still a work in progress, but this was the area where he teased over the years with glimpses of greatness; this is also an area where Casey and his stupid role-cards also took a lot of the blame. Taking the next step in this area (ie: do it more and do it consistently, every game) is what DeRozan needs to do to in order to earn the max-contract that he's likely to receive this offseason.


          I would never try to take credit for DeRozan's turnaround, because I've never had the opportunity to get in his ear. However, there is a certain level of justification to see him blossoming into a better/star player, for improving his game mainly by addressing the very issues his critics have been harping about. DeRozan is a player that is easy to cheer for, but has been so damn frustrating to watch over the years.

          If he can continue to show that he can improve these facets of his game, which most of his critics had hoped for, while also proving critics wrong with a consistently reliable 3pt shot (#provem indeed), then I would be one happy converted critic. Consistency is key, moving forward.
          Except, hasn't this simply been what he has been working toward... I mean, i always saw it this way. I guess other people didn't. I'm used to that though.

          :P

          Comment


          • Superjudge wrote: View Post
            Hahahhahahaaaaa.

            Are you serious. THAT is EXACTLY what he is doing, and he SHOULD.

            hahahahahaaaa

            It is tickling me with glee that you guys are all salty about this.... but even more so, that I didn't have to be the one to put ya back in your place for once, this time it comes right from the source, and guess what, he is 100% bang on.
            But this doesn't really make any sense.

            A bunch of us 'fringe, basement-dwelling internet fans' (to paraphrase) suggested that last season's scramble defense didn't suit the team's personnel, and that a shift to a different defensive system would benefit the team.

            The Raptors, under Casey's leadership, switched from a scramble defense to a more traditional defense this season, and it has paid dividends for the team. It has also turned several of the worst offenders (and those that us fans felt were the worst fit in that system - ie: JV) into quality defenders, simply by allowing them to play more to their strengths.

            Casey did exactly what a lot of us fans were clamoring for, and it has worked. Does that give us fans some credibility, or does that sink Casey down to the they 'lowly fan' level? Something's got to give, no??

            Comment


            • JWash wrote: View Post
              Dude, people attack everything about Casey. Idk why we're even trying to deny it right now lol, we ALL do it.

              Casey is the one guy in the organization that is basically consistently hated and shit on by the fanbase here. At least for DeMar it's split down the middle. There's maybe one or two guys who haven't slung some major shit at Casey.
              not me. i like casey

              Comment


              • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                Even the harshest DD critics have never had anything but positive things to say about him as a person, a teammate and a member of the Raptors franchise. His critics have also said, for the most part, that they sincerely hope to be proven wrong because DeRozan has always oozed potential and raw talent, while being such a likable guy.

                The frustration was always about whether or not he would ever 'get it', with regards to learning how to 'play the right way' - ie: smart, efficient basketball.

                Over the past couple years, there has also been more wiggle room worked into the conversation, openly questioning how much of the decision-making coming under criticism has been his fault or Casey's; the consensus seems to have been a combination of the two.

                Going back to the start of his career, off the top of my head, the main observations/criticisms/recommendations have been:

                1. Attack the basket aggressively and don't shy away from contact - he's obviously done a great job of improving in this area over the years, as evidenced by his number of drives and free throw attempts.

                2. Defense matters too - he'll never be a defensive stopper, he rarely covers the better wing, and he still has mental lapses from time to time, but for the most part he's become an average defender with an improving awareness of blocking the passing lanes.

                3. Shooting guards need to shoot the 3 well - this was probably the one area where critics wrote him off, and over the past month or so he's shown signs of improvement. His 3 point shot is still a work in progress, but this is one area where his critics (and some of his supporters too) are likely to be proven wrong... hopefully!

                4. Scoring efficiently - for years the biggest complaint was about forcing his game and taking bad shots, including an unhealthy reliance on what was statistically the worst shot in basketball - the dreaded long-2. This also happens to be one of the biggest differences in his game this season, and the one area where his critics can counter #provem with #toldyouso.

                5. One dimensional scorer - similar to #4, this was also one of the biggest complaints about DeRozan for years. A player simply can't be a net-positive contributor to the team if their only contribution is inefficient scoring. DeRozan has definitely shown signs of becoming a more complete player (ie: assists and rebounds), who can make his teammates better and generate more efficient scoring opportunities for the whole team. This is still a work in progress, but this was the area where he teased over the years with glimpses of greatness; this is also an area where Casey and his stupid role-cards also took a lot of the blame. Taking the next step in this area (ie: do it more and do it consistently, every game) is what DeRozan needs to do to in order to earn the max-contract that he's likely to receive this offseason.


                I would never try to take credit for DeRozan's turnaround, because I've never had the opportunity to get in his ear. However, there is a certain level of justification to see him blossoming into a better/star player, for improving his game mainly by addressing the very issues his critics have been harping about. DeRozan is a player that is easy to cheer for, but has been so damn frustrating to watch over the years.

                If he can continue to show that he can improve these facets of his game, which most of his critics had hoped for, while also proving critics wrong with a consistently reliable 3pt shot (#provem indeed), then I would be one happy converted critic. Consistency is key, moving forward.
                Here's the problem though. The context.

                The anti-DeRozan crowd (sorry not sure what else to call that group) never said, "Oh DD needs to do this, this and this to get better" or "If we put DeRozan in different positions/spots he could do X, Y and Z better". It was mostly "He can't do A, B, and C so he sucks and we need to get rid of him".

                I already quoted where I brought up in the summer how a better system could put DeRozan in positions to succeed and be more efficient on the floor. I thought he'd need that kind of push from the coaching staff/system to be successful, turns out he did it himself. But I was getting killed around May/June or so for those kind of posts.

                Comment


                • Superjudge wrote: View Post
                  Is that what your stat sheet says.... they turn it over because they dont care?

                  Have you seen their motion?
                  They don't make a big deal about turnovers. Kerr has said as much. I've watched the games and heard his timeouts.

                  They want to push the pace and generate quick hits, and sometimes that means turnovers. If the good is that good, the bad matters a lot less.
                  twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

                  Comment


                  • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                    But this doesn't really make any sense.

                    A bunch of us 'fringe, basement-dwelling internet fans' (to paraphrase) suggested that last season's scramble defense didn't suit the team's personnel, and that a shift to a different defensive system would benefit the team.

                    The Raptors, under Casey's leadership, switched from a scramble defense to a more traditional defense this season, and it has paid dividends for the team. It has also turned several of the worst offenders (and those that us fans felt were the worst fit in that system - ie: JV) into quality defenders, simply by allowing them to play more to their strengths.

                    Casey did exactly what a lot of us fans were clamoring for, and it has worked. Does that give us fans some credibility, or does that sink Casey down to the they 'lowly fan' level? Something's got to give, no??
                    No.
                    because the guys he had on the floor last year weren't capable of playing how they are now. either by trade or personal improvement, that has changed alittle.

                    Comment


                    • I find it odd that people are talking about this as if anything has been decided. We are enjoying the best stretch of his career, but the season isn't over yet. If he and or we flame out in the playoffs again, does anything about this really matter?

                      Enjoy the good times, but don't act as if it is the be-all end-all.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                      Comment


                      • JWash wrote: View Post
                        Here's the problem though. The context.

                        The anti-DeRozan crowd (sorry not sure what else to call that group) never said, "Oh DD needs to do this, this and this to get better" or "If we put DeRozan in different positions/spots he could do X, Y and Z better". It was mostly "He can't do A, B, and C so he sucks and we need to get rid of him".

                        I already quoted where I brought up in the summer how a better system could put DeRozan in positions to succeed and be more efficient on the floor. I thought he'd need that kind of push from the coaching staff/system to be successful, turns out he did it himself. But I was getting killed around May/June or so for those kind of posts.
                        Hey man, I recently said that 'If DeMar can bring himself up to 6 assists per game he can become a true star', and you told me 'He can't do A, B and C, so he'll never be a true star'.

                        Who's the anti-DeRozan crowd now? /pink
                        twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

                        Comment


                        • Barolt wrote: View Post
                          They don't make a big deal about turnovers. Kerr has said as much. I've watched the games and heard his timeouts.

                          They want to push the pace and generate quick hits, and sometimes that means turnovers. If the good is that good, the bad matters a lot less.
                          yes, but you think they just don't care.... thats not the case, they simply know its a product of a very, very fast pace and a commotion offence. But damn are they amazing to watch. Just the full on, 5 player skill level and commitment to speed. I love it. I think were kinda on the same page here Barolt

                          Comment


                          • Axel wrote: View Post
                            I find it odd that people are talking about this as if anything has been decided. We are enjoying the best stretch of his career, but the season isn't over yet. If he and or we flame out in the playoffs again, does anything about this really matter?

                            Enjoy the good times, but don't act as if it is the be-all end-all.
                            Youre such a good messageboarder hahaha

                            Like a Lawyer.

                            Comment


                            • Barolt wrote: View Post
                              Hey man, I recently said that 'If DeMar can bring himself up to 6 assists per game he can become a true star', and you told me 'He can't do A, B and C, so he'll never be a true star'.

                              Who's the anti-DeRozan crowd now? /pink
                              No you were complaining that he DOESN'T average that many assists and I pointed out that it's an unrealistic expectation from him.

                              Comment


                              • JWash wrote: View Post
                                Here's the problem though. The context.

                                The anti-DeRozan crowd (sorry not sure what else to call that group) never said, "Oh DD needs to do this, this and this to get better" or "If we put DeRozan in different positions/spots he could do X, Y and Z better". It was mostly "He can't do A, B, and C so he sucks and we need to get rid of him".

                                I already quoted where I brought up in the summer how a better system could put DeRozan in positions to succeed and be more efficient on the floor. I thought he'd need that kind of push from the coaching staff/system to be successful, turns out he did it himself. But I was getting killed around May/June or so for those kind of posts.
                                Think you were simply late to the party. This is a conversation that has been going on for years. Hard for you to really summarize years of debate when you've only been here since May.
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                                Comment

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