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  • Nosike wrote: View Post
    Agree totally with the above, other than barely adequate handles. He doesn't have yo yo handles but he controls the ball well and has a low turnover rate. Handles doesn't just mean breaking guys down off the bounce. Look at Lebron for example. Rarely does he dazzle you with spectacular dribble moves, but he gets where he needs to without losing it.
    lebrons body just doesnt seem built for that sort of thing. derozans should be!

    Comment


    • Is Demar looking and more like Kobe by the day?

      Demar is a big SG, undersized SF like Kobe.
      Demar has an above average post game, especially for a guard. Like Kobe. And what's better is that I don't recall him working out with Hakeem Olajuwan.
      Both got a nasty fadeaway.
      Both got a nasty pull up jumper.
      Both were crazy athletic when they were young.
      Both have a somewhat inconsistent 3 point shot.

      And Demar is still growing

      Demar has grown into a great shooting guard with the offensively inept Dwane Casey, with ball hogs like Rudy Gay, Bargs, Alan Anderson, with no mentoring and in a garbage system.

      If we get some proper mentorship for Demar Derozan, or even have him work out with Hakeem Olajuwan, this guy is a keeper.
      Why trade him for 2 first rounders (at best) just to hope to get a guy like Derozan?

      This guy needs another season maybe, and another talent, and his game will easily take flight.

      Comment


      • He may be LIKE Kobe, but he's not Kobe.


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
        OG is our king

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        • consmap wrote: View Post
          He may be LIKE Kobe, but he's not Kobe.


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          No. The nature of this team (ie. him being the best scorer on the team) forces him into situations where he has to be "like" Kobe.

          He'd be much better off if he could play a secondary role more like the one that Wade is currently playing with Miami. He's obviously not as good as Wade. But what I mean is he gets to play off a superstar who COMMANDS defensive attention. That results in him getting easy baskets off cuts, moving without the ball and weakside slashes into the defense. Then obviously, Wade will take the jumpshot when left alone.

          Comment


          • Masai Ujiri wrote: View Post
            No. The nature of this team (ie. him being the best scorer on the team) forces him into situations where he has to be "like" Kobe.

            He'd be much better off if he could play a secondary role more like the one that Wade is currently playing with Miami. He's obviously not as good as Wade. But what I mean is he gets to play off a superstar who COMMANDS defensive attention. That results in him getting easy baskets off cuts, moving without the ball and weakside slashes into the defense. Then obviously, Wade will take the jumpshot when left alone.
            I really don't get the bold, as it seems to be an excuse for one of two things:
            1. poor decision-making and/or inefficient scoring by DeRozan
            2. poor offensive game planning and play calling by Casey

            I agree completely that he's best suited to be a #2 scorer, behind a #1 option that doesn't make his game redundant (ie: the way Gay/DeRozan created redundancy and a poorly balanced starting lineup). However, I don't agree that him being forced into the #1 scoring role is a rationale for him to take some bad shots (ie: too many long 2's, too many forced/contested shots).

            I think there are other players that should get more touches and take more shots, within the flow of the game, even by having more plays created/called for them.

            A good example of this was the Miami game, when the Raps went away from the interior game down the stretch, after having success with it earlier in the 4th quarter (at one point Valanciunas scored 6 or 8 straight points). Unfortunately, with the game on the line, the Raptors (including DeRozan) fell into the old rut of falling in love with long jumpers, making it an easy win for Miami. This could be a combination of a young/inexperienced team succumbing to the pressure, poor coaching, and poor on-court execution. The bottom line though, is that if more players were being relied upon to score more regularly - which they should be on a team lacking a true #1 scoring option - they'd be more equipped to deal with those late-game pressure situations.

            You argued with other posters about needing to 'think outside the box' more in another thread recently, yet this type of excusing of DeRozan's inefficiency, is falling into the same trap. I actually think DeRozan would become a much better all around player and silence some of his critics (of which I've long been one), if he and/or Casey focused a little more on his own shooting efficiencies, rather than just excuse them under the rug.

            Comment


            • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
              I really don't get the bold, as it seems to be an excuse for one of two things:
              1. poor decision-making and/or inefficient scoring by DeRozan
              2. poor offensive game planning and play calling by Casey

              I agree completely that he's best suited to be a #2 scorer, behind a #1 option that doesn't make his game redundant (ie: the way Gay/DeRozan created redundancy and a poorly balanced starting lineup). However, I don't agree that him being forced into the #1 scoring role is a rationale for him to take some bad shots (ie: too many long 2's, too many forced/contested shots).

              I think there are other players that should get more touches and take more shots, within the flow of the game, even by having more plays created/called for them.

              A good example of this was the Miami game, when the Raps went away from the interior game down the stretch, after having success with it earlier in the 4th quarter (at one point Valanciunas scored 6 or 8 straight points). Unfortunately, with the game on the line, the Raptors (including DeRozan) fell into the old rut of falling in love with long jumpers, making it an easy win for Miami. This could be a combination of a young/inexperienced team succumbing to the pressure, poor coaching, and poor on-court execution. The bottom line though, is that if more players were being relied upon to score more regularly - which they should be on a team lacking a true #1 scoring option - they'd be more equipped to deal with those late-game pressure situations.

              You argued with other posters about needing to 'think outside the box' more in another thread recently, yet this type of excusing of DeRozan's inefficiency, is falling into the same trap. I actually think DeRozan would become a much better all around player and silence some of his critics (of which I've long been one), if he and/or Casey focused a little more on his own shooting efficiencies, rather than just excuse them under the rug.
              Newsflash, the Heat were taking the EXACT same type of shuts as us down the stretch. The difference is they have the potential GOAT taking them in LeBron James, and we have a secondary scorer in DeRozan taking them.

              I suggest you go read my post in another thread that explains how DeRozan's efficiency is affected by these shots and why he is forced into certain situations where he has to take them (obviously there are times he takes them anyway when he shouldn't).

              The reality is DeRozan takes 3-5 of these high difficulty mid-range jumpers a game, with the bulk of them coming near the end of the shot clock (which means they are taken out of necessity, again read the thread where I explained this).

              You bring in a real superstar, all of a sudden he's only taking maybe 1 or 2 of these shots a game as opposed to 5. That's 3 less shot attempts and a similar scoring output. That would put his true shooting percentage at above 55% and his PPS to 1.33-1.4

              Comment


              • Masai Ujiri wrote: View Post
                Newsflash, the Heat were taking the EXACT same type of shuts as us down the stretch. The difference is they have the potential GOAT taking them in LeBron James, and we have a secondary scorer in DeRozan taking them.

                I suggest you go read my post in another thread that explains how DeRozan's efficiency is affected by these shots and why he is forced into certain situations where he has to take them (obviously there are times he takes them anyway when he shouldn't).

                The reality is DeRozan takes 3-5 of these high difficulty mid-range jumpers a game, with the bulk of them coming near the end of the shot clock (which means they are taken out of necessity, again read the thread where I explained this).

                You bring in a real superstar, all of a sudden he's only taking maybe 1 or 2 of these shots a game as opposed to 5. That's 3 less shot attempts and a similar scoring output. That would put his true shooting percentage at above 55% and his PPS to 1.33-1.4
                I have read all your posts, I just fundamentally disagree with the bolded part.

                I don't believe DeRozan is forced into anything, or that he ever has to take a bad shot. I think that's just making excuses for inefficient shooting and/or poor decision making.

                Most times when DeRozan does take a shot with the shot-clock winding down, it's directly a result of him consciously choosing to work an ISO situation with the ball in his hands.

                You make it sound like his teammates are constantly wasting time dribbling/passing and suddenly realize there's <3 seconds on the clock, so they give it to DeRozan with no choice but to hoist up a hail-mary shot. That's just not the case.

                I honestly don't think it would take much effort on DeRozan's/Casey's part to spread around the offense a little more and instill in DeRozan the need to avoid 'bad' shots (and he's not the only Raptor guilty of this - Lowry took a couple awful 3pt shots in transition with probably 20+ seconds left on the shot clock against Miami, which led to odd-man rushes the other way). The scoring inefficiency has been one of DeRozan's biggest negatives, but it doesn't have to be. Hopefully as he continues to mature and gain experience, ideally along with having a better coach and improved scoring options playing alongside him, this will all work itself out and he'll become a more efficient, well-rounded player. I'm not hating on him, but rather pointing out how relatively easy I think it could/should be for him to address this deficiency.

                Comment


                • Ok agree to disagree, done discussing this topic with you.

                  Comment


                  • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                    I have read all your posts, I just fundamentally disagree with the bolded part.

                    I don't believe DeRozan is forced into anything, or that he ever has to take a bad shot. I think that's just making excuses for inefficient shooting and/or poor decision making.

                    Most times when DeRozan does take a shot with the shot-clock winding down, it's directly a result of him consciously choosing to work an ISO situation with the ball in his hands.

                    You make it sound like his teammates are constantly wasting time dribbling/passing and suddenly realize there's <3 seconds on the clock, so they give it to DeRozan with no choice but to hoist up a hail-mary shot. That's just not the case.

                    I honestly don't think it would take much effort on DeRozan's/Casey's part to spread around the offense a little more and instill in DeRozan the need to avoid 'bad' shots (and he's not the only Raptor guilty of this - Lowry took a couple awful 3pt shots in transition with probably 20+ seconds left on the shot clock against Miami, which led to odd-man rushes the other way). The scoring inefficiency has been one of DeRozan's biggest negatives, but it doesn't have to be. Hopefully as he continues to mature and gain experience, ideally along with having a better coach and improved scoring options playing alongside him, this will all work itself out and he'll become a more efficient, well-rounded player. I'm not hating on him, but rather pointing out how relatively easy I think it could/should be for him to address this deficiency.
                    Bold 1: "Most"? The opponent's defensive strategy is a minor factor? If they cut off everything else, the only "conscious" thing is taking what the defense gives you.

                    Bold 2: Again, opposing defenses have a say in this. I don't know what you've been seeing lately, but they've made a very conscious effort to spread the offense around, with DeMar being one of the biggest contributors to that. Thing is, everybody knows mid-to-long 2 pointers are the least efficient, which is why teams like the Spurs (and many follow) do 2 things consistently on defense: pack the paint, and run shooters off the line. This makes it rather difficult sometimes to get anything other than mid range.

                    This "he chooses to take many bad shots" narrative is beginning to get stale, imo. Remove the late shot clock ones that he has little choice, and I'd say (I don't track this stuff) he's taking no more than a couple of truly ill-advised shots a game, and there isn't a primary/secondary scoring option SG in the league that doesn't do that. Way too much focus from here on what is rapidly becoming minor deficiencies in his game.

                    Yeah, he's not among the handful of "superstars" in the league, but then he's not paid anything close to it either. Mark my words, and I'll stand up and take the flack if I'm wrong, his contract will look like a hell of a bargain, if not by this year, certainly by next year. It's going to be the same as the Amir story all over again: all the bitching that went on about Amir's contract, and now look at him. One of the best bargains in the league. "When will they ever learn, when.....".

                    Talented, dedicated, loyal, very hard working, and barely 24. I don't understand all the nit-picky bitching about him.

                    Comment


                    • p00ka wrote: View Post
                      Bold 1: "Most"? The opponent's defensive strategy is a minor factor? If they cut off everything else, the only "conscious" thing is taking what the defense gives you.

                      Bold 2: Again, opposing defenses have a say in this. I don't know what you've been seeing lately, but they've made a very conscious effort to spread the offense around, with DeMar being one of the biggest contributors to that. Thing is, everybody knows mid-to-long 2 pointers are the least efficient, which is why teams like the Spurs (and many follow) do 2 things consistently on defense: pack the paint, and run shooters off the line. This makes it rather difficult sometimes to get anything other than mid range.

                      This "he chooses to take many bad shots" narrative is beginning to get stale, imo. Remove the late shot clock ones that he has little choice, and I'd say (I don't track this stuff) he's taking no more than a couple of truly ill-advised shots a game, and there isn't a primary/secondary scoring option SG in the league that doesn't do that. Way too much focus from here on what is rapidly becoming minor deficiencies in his game.

                      Yeah, he's not among the handful of "superstars" in the league, but then he's not paid anything close to it either. Mark my words, and I'll stand up and take the flack if I'm wrong, his contract will look like a hell of a bargain, if not by this year, certainly by next year. It's going to be the same as the Amir story all over again: all the bitching that went on about Amir's contract, and now look at him. One of the best bargains in the league. "When will they ever learn, when.....".

                      Talented, dedicated, loyal, very hard working, and barely 24. I don't understand all the nit-picky bitching about him.
                      I took issue with another poster making excuses for DeRozan's continued inefficiency and/or some questionable decisions related to shot selection. I agreed that he had shown improvements this year and was simply stating that by focusing on the negatives in an attempt to correct/overcome them, he could become a much better player, rather than just excusing them away. I also said that I felt he was capable of doing so, with the help of better coaching and having more plays drawn up for his teammates (who the stats say are also pretty efficient scorers in their own right).

                      I didn't think I was being nitpicky at all. Rather than just chastise DeRozan, I was looking for a way to help him improve his game while simultaneously taking advantage of the efficiency of his often underutilized teammates. As you point out, he has become much more of the focal point for opposing defenses. Given that development, you'd think that Casey would draw up plays to turn this into an advantage and/or DeRozan would look to facilitate ball movement more often (ie: double-teams means there's an open man waiting for the ball for a clean look), rather than accepting forced/contested/bad shots as the ideal outcome of so many possessions.

                      Adapting to the situation to maximize the number of efficient scoring plays, for DeRozan and his teammates, is in the best interest for all 5 players on the court and the team collectively. I even left the door open for this continued excuse-making to fall on Casey's offensive shortcomings, as much as DeRozan's.

                      Comment


                      • God damn you guys get so emotional when anyone even suggests that Demar has flaws lol I love Derozan as much as the next guy but stop being so defensive making excuses for every little mistake he makes, he's not perfect! Buuuuuut... he still has room to grow so much more!!! However, in order to become a better player he must focus on taking better shots, that's basically it.

                        Don't get me wrong, he has gotten so much better (maybe even deserving of a spot on the All-Star team) but he is still not as efficient as he could be, and all he has to do to fix that is by forcing his game less. He's bought in pretty well to the team concept but he still has tendencies to rely on iso-ball more than he has to.

                        This isn't nit-picky bitching, I'm so fuckin stoked by the way he's been playing, he's a fun player to watch, my favorite player in the league (yes, I'm a homer). Like CRF said, it's simply trying to look for way to improve his game.
                        You come at the King, you best not miss.

                        Comment


                        • Mr.Z wrote: View Post
                          God damn you guys get so emotional when anyone even suggests that Demar has flaws lol I love Derozan as much as the next guy but stop being so defensive making excuses for every little mistake he makes, he's not perfect! Buuuuuut... he still has room to grow so much more!!! However, in order to become a better player he must focus on taking better shots, that's basically it.

                          Don't get me wrong, he has gotten so much better (maybe even deserving of a spot on the All-Star team) but he is still not as efficient as he could be, and all he has to do to fix that is by forcing his game less. He's bought in pretty well to the team concept but he still has tendencies to rely on iso-ball more than he has to.

                          This isn't nit-picky bitching, I'm so fuckin stoked by the way he's been playing, he's a fun player to watch, my favorite player in the league (yes, I'm a homer). Like CRF said, it's simply trying to look for way to improve his game.
                          Was essentially going to say the same thing but you got to it first lol.

                          If he keeps working hard and making strides every year, he could be an all star by the time he hits his prime IMO. It's all about getting his FG% up, and its totally doable especially if a star is added to the core to take attention away from him. I feel he's made a big step this year in terms of being more of an all around player

                          Comment


                          • Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
                            Was essentially going to say the same thing but you got to it first lol.

                            If he keeps working hard and making strides every year, he could be an all star by the time he hits his prime IMO. It's all about getting his FG% up, and its totally doable especially if a star is added to the core to take attention away from him. I feel he's made a big step this year in terms of being more of an all around player
                            Umm this is exactly what I'm trying to say....

                            Comment


                            • Mr.Z wrote: View Post
                              God damn you guys get so emotional when anyone even suggests that Demar has flaws lol I love Derozan as much as the next guy but stop being so defensive making excuses for every little mistake he makes, he's not perfect! Buuuuuut... he still has room to grow so much more!!! However, in order to become a better player he must focus on taking better shots, that's basically it.

                              Don't get me wrong, he has gotten so much better (maybe even deserving of a spot on the All-Star team) but he is still not as efficient as he could be, and all he has to do to fix that is by forcing his game less. He's bought in pretty well to the team concept but he still has tendencies to rely on iso-ball more than he has to.

                              This isn't nit-picky bitching, I'm so fuckin stoked by the way he's been playing, he's a fun player to watch, my favorite player in the league (yes, I'm a homer). Like CRF said, it's simply trying to look for way to improve his game.
                              Dude, I don't know how much you've been around here the past 6 months, but your "even suggests" in reality, has been almost constant bombardment of posts, and even whole threads, of knocking the kid down. These "emotional" responses, as you laugh at them as, are as the result of hearing the same shit over and over for the 1,000th time, and being effing fed up with it.

                              Beyond that, I don't see much of what I would call "making excuses". Most are trying to bring a little sober thought to the evaluation, in pointing out both what his responsibilities are within the team, as well as looking at what the opposition does to affect his "efficiency". The kind of stuff that many seem to overlook in what sometimes seems like a video game view of the game.

                              For example, in this iso-ball narrative seen numerous times, there seems to be little recognition of the realities of the in-game situations. If passing lanes are closed, except for the teammate on the opposite side of the court, and you've got a KD/LBJ/Marion/Kawhi type in your face, there's no choice but to go 1on1 until someone breaks free and creates an open passing lane. Even harder to move the ball to the "open guy" when double teamed. These re realities of playing the game against the top pros in the world, coached by the top coaches in the world,,,,,,,,,, not excuses.

                              As far as the "nit-picking" claim, here's the thing: how much talk do you see on here about "improving" other players? As an example, Jonas had a poor game last night. He picked it up in the 2nd half, but all those offensive rebounds Miami (worst rebounding team in the league) got had far more impact on the game than a couple of off balance shots from DeMar. How much talk do you see here about "improving" JV's game, after last night? None. It's all about a couple of shots from DeMar, besides the valuable "DeMar's PPS" discussion of course. How much talk do you see here about "improving" anybody but DeMar's game? It's the constant focus on ONE player's deficiencies that maddening, going on for many months, and when opposing teams' game planning him is ignored....... People are going to respond with their view, and to laugh at them as "excuses" is simply demeaning valid points, and ignorant, imo.

                              Comment


                              • p00ka wrote: View Post
                                Dude, I don't know how much you've been around here the past 6 months, but your "even suggests" in reality, has been almost constant bombardment of posts, and even whole threads, of knocking the kid down. These "emotional" responses, as you laugh at them as, are as the result of hearing the same shit over and over for the 1,000th time, and being effing fed up with it.

                                Beyond that, I don't see much of what I would call "making excuses". Most are trying to bring a little sober thought to the evaluation, in pointing out both what his responsibilities are within the team, as well as looking at what the opposition does to affect his "efficiency". The kind of stuff that many seem to overlook in what sometimes seems like a video game view of the game.

                                For example, in this iso-ball narrative seen numerous times, there seems to be little recognition of the realities of the in-game situations. If passing lanes are closed, except for the teammate on the opposite side of the court, and you've got a KD/LBJ/Marion/Kawhi type in your face, there's no choice but to go 1on1 until someone breaks free and creates an open passing lane. Even harder to move the ball to the "open guy" when double teamed. These re realities of playing the game against the top pros in the world, coached by the top coaches in the world,,,,,,,,,, not excuses.

                                As far as the "nit-picking" claim, here's the thing: how much talk do you see on here about "improving" other players? As an example, Jonas had a poor game last night. He picked it up in the 2nd half, but all those offensive rebounds Miami (worst rebounding team in the league) got had far more impact on the game than a couple of off balance shots from DeMar. How much talk do you see here about "improving" JV's game, after last night? None. It's all about a couple of shots from DeMar, besides the valuable "DeMar's PPS" discussion of course. How much talk do you see here about "improving" anybody but DeMar's game? It's the constant focus on ONE player's deficiencies that maddening, going on for many months, and when opposing teams' game planning him is ignored....... People are going to respond with their view, and to laugh at them as "excuses" is simply demeaning valid points, and ignorant, imo.
                                I get what you're saying, this issue has beaten to a bloody pulp but both sides have taken their shots.
                                I'm sorry for calling it excuses, let me just say then that I don't agree that Demar is being "forced" into those bad situations (sometimes yes, but not all the time).
                                And I know some people are pretty damn hard on Demar and seem to hold some sort of grudge against him but that's not everyone. You guys are getting mad even at the people who say Demar has improved incredibly just because they mention he could still become better and are giving their opinion as to which area he should improve on to elevate his game.

                                But since we can't point out flaws in a players game let's just all agree and talk about how awesome of a basketball player Demar Derozan is.
                                You come at the King, you best not miss.

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