Everything Derozan

[Joey]

The rules have changed entirely since then. Now in a sign and trade, the player can only sign a contract up to 4 years in length, with 4.5% raises - exactly like if they signed directly as a free agent. There is literally no benefit to DeMar or his new team to do a sign and trade. Only benefit for the Raptors.

The one scenario where it is still useful is if the player wanted to go to a team without cap space. Of course, there's no such thing the summer DD is a free agent, which was my point. No team will give us assets for no reason.

Bosh wanted the 5th year and big raises, so forced a sign and trade. DD gets nothing in the same situation - the incentive isn't there.

[Primer]

demar wants to play here, and he is really good as long as he is coached. say we go with 18 to 20 mil for him, can you name anyone else in the L that would pick to play here for the same amount of money and offer up a similar win%. I really dont think we have alot of options here.

I think we could get Danny Green to play here for less than we would pay Demar, and I think we would be better. Green is a much better defender and an excellent 3 point shooter. He's not ball dominant so it would force our offense to go back to passing more.

I've seen Green talked about anywhere from $10-$15M, and $15M is the most I'd want to pay Demar. Basically his current contract increased to fit the new cap with a bit extra added in. I'd much rather have Danny Green though.

[thead]

Danny Green is such a system player that I wonder if he could thrive outside of San Antonio

[Primer]

Danny Green is such a system player that I wonder if he could thrive outside of San Antonio

This line of thinking doesn't make sense to me. The guy plays awesome defense, both man and zone, so that works on any team. He can also hit 3s at a very high clip, again, something that works anywhere. Is he better shooting 3s with his feet set? Yes, he is, but so is pretty much everyone outside of Lou Williams. The system Green requires is simple ball movement, which most NBA teams are able to pull off without trouble. Green won't swallow up entire possessions like Demar does, so immediately the ball movement would be better. E.g. He won't call for the ball, spend the entire shot clock trying to back down his man, then pump fake and flail a bad jumper while looking at the refs for the call.

Green might struggle in Caseys ISO heavy system, but so does everyone on our team, no one succeeds in that system.

[psrs1]

I think we could get Danny Green to play here for less than we would pay Demar, and I think we would be better. Green is a much better defender and an excellent 3 point shooter. He's not ball dominant so it would force our offense to go back to passing more.

I've seen Green talked about anywhere from $10-$15M, and $15M is the most I'd want to pay Demar. Basically his current contract increased to fit the new cap with a bit extra added in. I'd much rather have Danny Green though.

I like Green too. If we could sign Green then DD becomes expendable. DD is still our most valuable trade asset.

[special1]

I think we could get Danny Green to play here for less than we would pay Demar, and I think we would be better. Green is a much better defender and an excellent 3 point shooter. He's not ball dominant so it would force our offense to go back to passing more.

I've seen Green talked about anywhere from $10-$15M, and $15M is the most I'd want to pay Demar. Basically his current contract increased to fit the new cap with a bit extra added in. I'd much rather have Danny Green though.

LOL....

Do you really think Danny Green (who plays with 3 HOFamers, and Kawhi - surrounded by vets and plays for POPs) can come on this team, with this coach and players and be better than Demar???

We should NEVER EVER pay 10-15 mil for Danny Green. He may be the poster boy for 3&D but he's not a difference maker. He's a role player and a 5th option on a good team. This past season he made 4 Million. He's also 2 years older than Demar.

Having said all that, Demar is obviously a much better player than Danny Green. Danny would get exposed on this team.


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[Axel]

demar wants to play here, and he is really good as long as he is coached. say we go with 18 to 20 mil for him, can you name anyone else in the L that would pick to play here for the same amount of money and offer up a similar win%. I really dont think we have alot of options here.

Interesting that you choose win% as the stat of choice. So WinShares48 would the best, cause we don't want to short-change DD just because he got hurt and missed time (thus lowering his WinShares).

Last year, DD produced WS48 of 0.090 (good for 172nd of all players averaging at least 15 MPG). Last year (by far his career best) he was 0.141.

So in that range plus making less than $18M-$20M (Gordon Haywood signed for $14M-$16M for comparison's sake - and produced 0.159 WS48 last year)....

the previously mentioned Danny Green had 0.163 last year (even managed 0.083 in his rookie season in Cleveland FWIW). Made $4M last year and is a UFA. Should be able to get him for at least half the cost as DD.

DeMarre Carroll gets brought up a lot, had 0.154 WS48 last year (0.119 and 0.134 the previous 2 years). Coming off of a deal for just $2.4M.

Cory Joseph is another name that gets mentioned a lot. WS48 of 0.149, 0.148, 0.113 the last 3 years. Restricted free agent coming off $2M deal.

Ersan Ilyasova could be available if Milwaukee really wants to play Jabari at PF or depending on the draft. Signed for roughly $8M for 2 more years. WS48 0.146 last year and a career 0.130.

Jonas Jerebko - coming off $4.5M deal in Boston - WS48 of 0.135 on the year and 0.107 for his career.

Gallinari is on for $11.5M next year (expiring). WS48 of 0.98 is his career low (in his 2nd year) and was 0.138 last year.

Jared Sullinger seems a bit at odds with the Celtics (comments about his conditioning and production + wealth of assets) despite WS48 of 0.123 at $2.2M price tag.

Al-Farouq Aminu has a player option for just $1.1M despite WS48 of 0.115 (0.199 in playoffs) this year.

Jae Crowder was paid $915k this year with WS48 of 0.113 on the year. RFA, but certainly an option that would be cheaper than your $18M for DD.

Rodney Stuckey signed for $1.2M last year and produced 0.103 WS48.

James Johnson had WS48 0.143 for us last year. Expand his role and he's a bargain at $2.5M

Lots of options that would be cheaper than Demar and can contribute to a winning team at a relatively equal rate.

[Just Is]

LOL....

Do you really think Danny Green (who plays with 3 HOFamers, and Kawhi - surrounded by vets and plays for POPs) can come on this team, with this coach and players and be better than Demar???

We should NEVER EVER pay 10-15 mil for Danny Green. He may be the poster boy for 3&D but he's not a difference maker. He's a role player and a 5th option on a good team. This past season he made 4 Million. He's also 2 years older than Demar.

Having said all that, Demar is obviously a much better player than Danny Green. Danny would get exposed on this team.


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To be absolutely fair, the "system" that seems to be employed caters to Demar more than any more than any other player on the team. And even then, he doesn't look that good. Everyone gets exposed on this team because the system in place is just bad.

I also don't think the point being made was that Danny would be better than Demar. The argument was that he would ideally fit better in the type of system most people would want to see the Raptors employ.

I bolded coach because I heavily dislike Casey since he doesn't adapt to or take into account a player strengths. Which is, incidentally enough, the reason I would have hesitation to Danny Green myself.

Not to mention, it also becomes a difference when you consider salary.

[Axel]

LOL....

Do you really think Danny Green (who plays with 3 HOFamers, and Kawhi - surrounded by vets and plays for POPs) can come on this team, with this coach and players and be better than Demar???

We should NEVER EVER pay 10-15 mil for Danny Green. He may be the poster boy for 3&D but he's not a difference maker. He's a role player and a 5th option on a good team. This past season he made 4 Million. He's also 2 years older than Demar.

Having said all that, Demar is obviously a much better player than Danny Green. Danny would get exposed on this team.


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You could get Danny Green and add a player like Ilyasova (via trade) for roughly the same price as DD by himself (assuming $16M). Is DD better than having both of those players?

Opportunity cost needs to be taken into account.

[special1]

You could get Danny Green and add a player like Ilyasova (via trade) for roughly the same price as DD by himself (assuming $16M). Is DD better than having both of those players?

Opportunity cost needs to be taken into account.

I would rather have DD. Those guys are okay players. Neither of them has ever been or will ever be an all-star. Neither of them are difference makers. Both older than Demar as well. There's a reason Demar will likely command as much or more than those two combined......Simply put those guys are role players ....4th/5th options max.

I wouldn't mind having Danny Green on this team. Ilyasova? No thanks!

[S.R.]

To be absolutely fair, the "system" that seems to be employed caters to Demar more than any more than any other player on the team. And even then, he doesn't look that good. Everyone gets exposed on this team because the system in place is just bad.

I also don't think the point being made was that Danny would be better than Demar. The argument was that he would ideally fit better in the type of system most people would want to see the Raptors employ.

I bolded coach because I heavily dislike Casey since he doesn't adapt to or take into account a player strengths. Which is, incidentally enough, the reason I would have hesitation to Danny Green myself.

Not to mention, it also becomes a difference when you consider salary.

I would rather have DD. Those guys are okay players. Neither of them has ever been or will ever be an all-star. Neither of them are difference makers. Both older than Demar as well. There's a reason Demar will likely command as much or more than those two combined......Simply put those guys are role players ....4th/5th options max.

I wouldn't mind having Danny Green on this team. Ilyasova? No thanks!

Yeah, Danny Green is a very good complimentary player who would absolutely need the right system and surrounding cast to look as effective as he does in San Antonio. Role players like him also always make me a bit uncomfortable because you can't fully depend on them. The guy shot 47% from three in home games and 35% from three in away games last year (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/splits...88/danny-green). Guys like that similarly are not too hard to shut down in the playoffs if the D gives them just a bit more attention than they typically get during the regular season (see also: Kyle Korver). These are the ideal guys for filling out your roster, but I don't think they're your foundation building blocks.

Whoever is here next they need to be on reasonable contracts so that they can be moved if future opportunities come up. The Raps absolutely should not overpay somebody because "what do you expect, it's Toronto, he's the best we can get." Team-friendly contracts only. Otherwise, let them walk - I'd rather lose the talent and have the cap space, even if it means being worse in the short-term (better draft pick anyways). This is not a league where you can overpay middling talent and win championships.

[Primer]

LOL....

Do you really think Danny Green (who plays with 3 HOFamers, and Kawhi - surrounded by vets and plays for POPs) can come on this team, with this coach and players and be better than Demar???

We should NEVER EVER pay 10-15 mil for Danny Green. He may be the poster boy for 3&D but he's not a difference maker. He's a role player and a 5th option on a good team. This past season he made 4 Million. He's also 2 years older than Demar.

Having said all that, Demar is obviously a much better player than Danny Green. Danny would get exposed on this team.


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Wouldn't Demar be exposed if he was on the Spurs? A ball stopper who can't hit 3s and plays poor defense would be a bench warmer on a Pop coached team. I'm not convinced DD is better than Green. Demar gets to the FT line more, but he's worse at everything else. Green is a way better shooter and a way better defender. DD got to the all star game by stat stuffing on a mediocre team, averaging 38 minutes per game and 18 shots per game would give any player a reasonable shot at the all star team.

The fact Green can be added for $5-10M less per year than Demar makes it a no brainier in my book.

[Primer]

Yeah, Danny Green is a very good complimentary player who would absolutely need the right system and surrounding cast to look as effective as he does in San Antonio. Role players like him also always make me a bit uncomfortable because you can't fully depend on them. The guy shot 47% from three in home games and 35% from three in away games last year (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/splits...88/danny-green). Guys like that similarly are not too hard to shut down in the playoffs if the D gives them just a bit more attention than they typically get during the regular season (see also: Kyle Korver). These are the ideal guys for filling out your roster, but I don't think they're your foundation building blocks.

Whoever is here next they need to be on reasonable contracts so that they can be moved if future opportunities come up. The Raps absolutely should not overpay somebody because "what do you expect, it's Toronto, he's the best we can get." Team-friendly contracts only. Otherwise, let them walk - I'd rather lose the talent and have the cap space, even if it means being worse in the short-term (better draft pick anyways). This is not a league where you can overpay middling talent and win championships.

I'd argue Demar is also a complementary role player who needs the right system and surrounding cast to look effective. The difference between Demar and Green is you can plug Green into just about any system in the NBA and he'd work great, whereas Demar will only work with a few unconventional systems where you don't need your SG to be a long range threat.

It's funny that even Greens bad nights from 3 he is still way better than Demar. Also, Demar has been plenty easy to shut down in the playoffs. All the arguments being used against Green are equally if not more effective when used against Demar.

[S.R.]

I'd argue Demar is also a complementary role player who needs the right system and surrounding cast to look effective. The difference between Demar and Green is you can plug Green into just about any system in the NBA and he'd work great, whereas Demar will only work with a few unconventional systems where you don't need your SG to be a long range threat.

It's funny that even Greens bad nights from 3 he is still way better than Demar. Also, Demar has been plenty easy to shut down in the playoffs. All the arguments being used against Green are equally if not more effective when used against Demar.

I'm not sure where this is going, but that's not true. Compare DeMar's per games for the past two seasons with his playoff per games. He sustained all his numbers except for a slight decrease in FG% (down to .391, which is really bad but unfortunately not much lower than his regular season %) and he actually elevated his 3P% during both post seasons. This year also his FTA were down and AST were up, but the two playoff years combined produce per game averages right in line with his reg season per games from the past two years.

I'd worry that if you tried to "plug Green into any system in the NBA" he might just disappear. I watched a bunch of Spurs games this year, and he'd disappear often enough on that team. The guy's a nice complimentary piece, but not a game breaker. If a player like Green can be had for a solid price, the acquisition is a no-brainer, but the Raps are still going to have a lack of top flight core talent problem that 10 Danny Greens will not solve for them.

[special1]

Wouldn't Demar be exposed if he was on the Spurs? A ball stopper who can't hit 3s and plays poor defense would be a bench warmer on a Pop coached team. I'm not convinced DD is better than Green. Demar gets to the FT line more, but he's worse at everything else. Green is a way better shooter and a way better defender. DD got to the all star game by stat stuffing on a mediocre team, averaging 38 minutes per game and 18 shots per game would give any player a reasonable shot at the all star team.

The fact Green can be added for $5-10M less per year than Demar makes it a no brainier in my book.

Danny plays with hall of famers....his coach is Pops.....all he's being asked to do is shoot when open, swing the ball and defend(keep in mind they have a pretty good defensive and offensive system).

It seems you fall into the same trap as others do. You overrate players until they come to the Raptors. Danny would look like Terrance Ross (maybe worse because Ross has better handles). The defensive system Toronto plays is different from the Spurs. So is the offensive system.... Danny would shit his pants if he had to create anything for himself.

If we were stupid enough to trade Demar to San Antonio for Danny Green straight up.....Pops would take him and laugh at us. He would make the Spurs younger and better.

I think it's foolish for you to say that Demar would be benched on the Spurs.....Like its so hard to swing the ball (especially when your passing it to HOFers and Finals MVP players). Demar is actually a decent playmaker and defender and would likely do even better in a better system.

You're not convinced he's better than green? You think he makes twice as much as Green does because of his looks??? You think is next contract will dwarf Green's because he's a nicer guy? Lol....That debate is over. Come back when Green is invited to play for Team USA or if he becomes an all-star or even wins player of the month.


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