Everything Derozan

[Cody73]

Interesting that you choose win% as the stat of choice. So WinShares48 would the best, cause we don't want to short-change DD just because he got hurt and missed time (thus lowering his WinShares).

Last year, DD produced WS48 of 0.090 (good for 172nd of all players averaging at least 15 MPG). Last year (by far his career best) he was 0.141.

So in that range plus making less than $18M-$20M (Gordon Haywood signed for $14M-$16M for comparison's sake - and produced 0.159 WS48 last year)....

the previously mentioned Danny Green had 0.163 last year (even managed 0.083 in his rookie season in Cleveland FWIW). Made $4M last year and is a UFA. Should be able to get him for at least half the cost as DD.

DeMarre Carroll gets brought up a lot, had 0.154 WS48 last year (0.119 and 0.134 the previous 2 years). Coming off of a deal for just $2.4M.

Cory Joseph is another name that gets mentioned a lot. WS48 of 0.149, 0.148, 0.113 the last 3 years. Restricted free agent coming off $2M deal.

Ersan Ilyasova could be available if Milwaukee really wants to play Jabari at PF or depending on the draft. Signed for roughly $8M for 2 more years. WS48 0.146 last year and a career 0.130.

Jonas Jerebko - coming off $4.5M deal in Boston - WS48 of 0.135 on the year and 0.107 for his career.

Gallinari is on for $11.5M next year (expiring). WS48 of 0.98 is his career low (in his 2nd year) and was 0.138 last year.

Jared Sullinger seems a bit at odds with the Celtics (comments about his conditioning and production + wealth of assets) despite WS48 of 0.123 at $2.2M price tag.

Al-Farouq Aminu has a player option for just $1.1M despite WS48 of 0.115 (0.199 in playoffs) this year.

Jae Crowder was paid $915k this year with WS48 of 0.113 on the year. RFA, but certainly an option that would be cheaper than your $18M for DD.

Rodney Stuckey signed for $1.2M last year and produced 0.103 WS48.

James Johnson had WS48 0.143 for us last year. Expand his role and he's a bargain at $2.5M

Lots of options that would be cheaper than Demar and can contribute to a winning team at a relatively equal rate.

Best post ever made on here....


Thank you for this. Thank you very very much.

[Primer]

Danny plays with hall of famers....his coach is Pops.....all he's being asked to do is shoot when open, swing the ball and defend(keep in mind they have a pretty good defensive and offensive system).

It seems you fall into the same trap as others do. You overrate players until they come to the Raptors. Danny would look like Terrance Ross (maybe worse because Ross has better handles). The defensive system Toronto plays is different from the Spurs. So is the offensive system.... Danny would shit his pants if he had to create anything for himself.

If we were stupid enough to trade Demar to San Antonio for Danny Green straight up.....Pops would take him and laugh at us. He would make the Spurs younger and better.

I think it's foolish for you to say that Demar would be benched on the Spurs.....Like its so hard to swing the ball (especially when your passing it to HOFers and Finals MVP players). Demar is actually a decent playmaker and defender and would likely do even better in a better system.

You're not convinced he's better than green? You think he makes twice as much as Green does because of his looks??? You think is next contract will dwarf Green's because he's a nicer guy? Lol....That debate is over. Come back when Green is invited to play for Team USA or if he becomes an all-star or even wins player of the month.


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Your arguments are just weak in my opinion. You think Green sucks because he plays with great players on a great team, but Demar is awesome because he's on a mediocre team playing mediocre to crappy basketball. A guy like Demar is who smart teams avoid in free agency, his stats are hollow and solely from him being given every single shot he wants to take, and his stats aren't even very good as they require you to completely ignore shooting percentages. What they get paid is irrelevant to how good they are, Middleton makes way less than Demar but is quite clearly the better player. Some dumb team is going to way overpay Demar because he averaged 20 points, I just don't want it to be us. Antoine Walker also was an all star who averaged 20 points per game.

[Primer]

I'm not sure where this is going, but that's not true. Compare DeMar's per games for the past two seasons with his playoff per games. He sustained all his numbers except for a slight decrease in FG% (down to .391, which is really bad but unfortunately not much lower than his regular season %) and he actually elevated his 3P% during both post seasons. This year also his FTA were down and AST were up, but the two playoff years combined produce per game averages right in line with his reg season per games from the past two years.

I'd worry that if you tried to "plug Green into any system in the NBA" he might just disappear. I watched a bunch of Spurs games this year, and he'd disappear often enough on that team. The guy's a nice complimentary piece, but not a game breaker. If a player like Green can be had for a solid price, the acquisition is a no-brainer, but the Raps are still going to have a lack of top flight core talent problem that 10 Danny Greens will not solve for them.

Shooting .391 FG% is basically being shut down. Your team sure as shit isn't winning if you're the leading scorer for your team and you're shooting like that.

[S.R.]

I'd argue Demar is also a complementary role player who needs the right system and surrounding cast to look effective. The difference between Demar and Green is you can plug Green into just about any system in the NBA and he'd work great, whereas Demar will only work with a few unconventional systems where you don't need your SG to be a long range threat.

It's funny that even Greens bad nights from 3 he is still way better than Demar. Also, Demar has been plenty easy to shut down in the playoffs. All the arguments being used against Green are equally if not more effective when used against Demar.

Actually Danny Green shot 35.4 3P% on the road this season and DeMar shot 37.5 3P% in the playoffs (34.6 3P% playoff career). So no, Greens bad nights from 3 are not still way better than Demar.

I'd like to have Danny Green on this team, but you're saying stuff without even looking it up/thinking it through.

[S.R.]

Shooting .391 FG% is basically being shut down. Your team sure as shit isn't winning if you're the leading scorer for your team and you're shooting like that.

It's ugly and I think they should try to trade DeMar this year, but if we're just comparing him vs. Danny Green you have to take systems and teammates into account. Casey was maybe about as bad a coach as DeMar could have as far as his FG% goes (benefits from high USG in all other areas). Theoretically if DeMar had 2 or 3 HoF teammates, a HoF coach, and a system that suited his skill set as well as San Antonio's suits green, DeMar would shoot a hell of a lot better than 39% in the playoffs. Conversly, put Green on this years Dwane Casey Raptors and I bet he's about half as useful as he was in San Antonio. Like I said, Green is a guy who needs the comfort of his home gym just to do 1 of the 2 things he's supposed to do well (shoot threes at a high clip). Even his D - he's a good defender, but not a great one. Yeah he'd be worth a team-friendly contract, but DeMar is 5 times the basketball player Danny Green is, even with all of DD's flaws. Okay maybe 3 times the basketball player

[Primer]

Actually Danny Green shot 35.4 3P% on the road this season and DeMar shot 37.5 3P% in the playoffs (34.6 3P% playoff career). So no, Greens bad nights from 3 are not still way better than Demar.

I'd like to have Danny Green on this team, but you're saying stuff without even looking it up/thinking it through.

This is some pretty impressive cherry picking you're doing. Danny Greens road 3pt % compared to Demars playoff 3pt %. Why oh why would we compare those two things? Demars playoff experience is 11 games for his career, it's a useless sample size, and definitely shouldn't be compared against another players regular season road percentages. Demar shot .289 3pt% on the road this year, that's a fair comparison, and Green is way fucking better. In the playoffs, Green is a career .429 from 3, which is always way better than Derozan.

Derozan has had one season where he shot better than .300 from 3, and he shot .305. He is a terrible 3 point shooter. Greens career average is .420, and he's shot over .415 the past four seasons. Green is a fantastic 3 point shooter.

Demar was terrible in the playoffs this year, he got shut down. His TS% wasn't an abysmal .463, don't know how anyone could argue he was effective in the playoffs.

[S.R.]

This is some pretty impressive cherry picking you're doing. Danny Greens road 3pt % compared to Demars playoff 3pt %. Why oh why would we compare those two things? Demars playoff experience is 11 games for his career, it's a useless sample size, and definitely shouldn't be compared against another players regular season road percentages. Demar shot .289 3pt% on the road this year, that's a fair comparison, and Green is way fucking better. In the playoffs, Green is a career .429 from 3, which is always way better than Derozan.

Derozan has had one season where he shot better than .300 from 3, and he shot .305. He is a terrible 3 point shooter. Greens career average is .420, and he's shot over .415 the past four seasons. Green is a fantastic 3 point shooter.

Demar was terrible in the playoffs this year, he got shut down. His TS% wasn't an abysmal .463, don't know how anyone could argue he was effective in the playoffs.

It referred to the point initially raised, that a guy like Green is a complimentary player and some complimentary players are easier to knock off their games than others. E.g. take a three point shooter out of his home gym and see how much his shooting falls off. You raised the point of "Green's worst nights vs. DeMar's best" and that DeMar got "shut down" in the playoffs, so I pointed out that some of Green's worst nights (shooting on the road) are in fact worse than DeMar's playoff averages, where his shooting was "shut down." That's all. FWIW Danny Green's three point shooting can in fact be brought down to DeMar DeRozan levels - the Clippers also did it to him in this year's first round matchup.

Green is fine, I don't think he'd look as good here with Casey as he did in San Antonio with Pops, and I'm a bit worried about the Raps keeping most of their core and filling out the roster with Green-type players. That's not a team that will go deep in the playoffs and it's not a team that will nab lottery picks. Their main hope then is going to be finding that rare superstar available for trade.

[special1]

Your arguments are just weak in my opinion. You think Green sucks because he plays with great players on a great team, but Demar is awesome because he's on a mediocre team playing mediocre to crappy basketball. A guy like Demar is who smart teams avoid in free agency, his stats are hollow and solely from him being given every single shot he wants to take, and his stats aren't even very good as they require you to completely ignore shooting percentages. What they get paid is irrelevant to how good they are, Middleton makes way less than Demar but is quite clearly the better player. Some dumb team is going to way overpay Demar because he averaged 20 points, I just don't want it to be us. Antoine Walker also was an all star who averaged 20 points per game.

First of all - There's a good chance Middleton makes more than Demar this coming season. Middleton has been in the league for what 3 years? He's younger than Demar as well. Your argument makes no sense.

Who said I think Green sucks? That's not true. I replied to your post where you said you see him getting 10-15 Million per season and i disagreed with that. Wouldn't that be some dumb team overpaying Danny Green....?? Better players usually get paid better. I guess your bias has blinded you to that fact.

I think you missed the point. We'd all like to have Danny Green. However, he is limited. He's good at what he does, which is 3&D. He's a 5th option guy. If he came here he'd struggle.....wanna know why?

1) Playing with Lowry is not the same as playing with Parker.
2) Playing with Ross is not the same as playing with Kawhi.
3) Playing with JV is not the same as playing with Duncan.
4) Playing for Casey is not the same as playing for Pops.
5) We don't have a Ginobli or a Diaw
6) The Spurs systems are better and they are consistent.

He has better calibre players who he has played with for years....they know where to find him on the court. They make him better. Why is this so hard for you to understand? By your logic, if Green goes to a mediocre team, he should be an all-star! Bull doodoo.

I would rather take a guy who puts up decent numbers as a #1/#2 option and drop him down a peg or 2, then to overpay and rely on a #5 option role player.

[Primer]

First of all - There's a good chance Middleton makes more than Demar this coming season. Middleton has been in the league for what 3 years? He's younger than Demar as well. Your argument makes no sense.

Who said I think Green sucks? That's not true. I replied to your post where you said you see him getting 10-15 Million per season and i disagreed with that. Wouldn't that be some dumb team overpaying Danny Green....?? Better players usually get paid better. I guess your bias has blinded you to that fact.

I think you missed the point. We'd all like to have Danny Green. However, he is limited. He's good at what he does, which is 3&D. He's a 5th option guy. If he came here he'd struggle.....wanna know why?

1) Playing with Lowry is not the same as playing with Parker.
2) Playing with Ross is not the same as playing with Kawhi.
3) Playing with JV is not the same as playing with Duncan.
4) Playing for Casey is not the same as playing for Pops.
5) We don't have a Ginobli or a Diaw
6) The Spurs systems are better and they are consistent.

He has better calibre players who he has played with for years....they know where to find him on the court. They make him better. Why is this so hard for you to understand? By your logic, if Green goes to a mediocre team, he should be an all-star! Bull doodoo.

I would rather take a guy who puts up decent numbers as a #1/#2 option and drop him down a peg or 2, then to overpay and rely on a #5 option role player.

What is Demar better at than Green besides free throw attempts? How is Demar better at basketball than Green? This is the main point all your posts gloss right over.

[Axel]

Come back when Green is invited to play for Team USA or if he becomes an all-star or even wins player of the month.

How about holding the current NBA record for 3 pointers made during the NBA Finals? Pretty sure that is better than Player of the Month for April (half month).

So before 2014 (when Demar first accomplished any of these things), was the sole basis of your arguments that Demar loved Toronto, worked hard and won the slam dunk contest? ~ rhetorical question ~

[Primer]

It's ugly and I think they should try to trade DeMar this year, but if we're just comparing him vs. Danny Green you have to take systems and teammates into account. Casey was maybe about as bad a coach as DeMar could have as far as his FG% goes (benefits from high USG in all other areas). Theoretically if DeMar had 2 or 3 HoF teammates, a HoF coach, and a system that suited his skill set as well as San Antonio's suits green, DeMar would shoot a hell of a lot better than 39% in the playoffs. Conversly, put Green on this years Dwane Casey Raptors and I bet he's about half as useful as he was in San Antonio. Like I said, Green is a guy who needs the comfort of his home gym just to do 1 of the 2 things he's supposed to do well (shoot threes at a high clip). Even his D - he's a good defender, but not a great one. Yeah he'd be worth a team-friendly contract, but DeMar is 5 times the basketball player Danny Green is, even with all of DD's flaws. Okay maybe 3 times the basketball player

I think Green is clearly the better basketball player and I'll address some erroneous points you're trying to make here.

First, trying to write off Danny Green's accomplishments because he plays for a good team is just stupid. Which player has left the Spurs and been worse at their new team? None. Moving on.

Second, every NBA teams offensive system suits Green, and none suit Demar. A guard who is a plus defender and shoots over 40% from 3pt land is desirable everywhere. A ball stopper with shoddy defense who shoots terrible %'s all over the court doesn't fit anywhere.

Third, Green still shot 35% from 3 on the road this year, which is a good 3pt percentage, and way better than anything Demar has ever sniffed. I bet you never even bothered to look up last season, where he shot .427 on the road and was better on the road than at home (.403 at home). That whole argument falls apart right there, Danny Green is a great 3pt shooter both at home and on the road.

Fourth, Danny Green is a great defender and has proven it year after year. He's got the third best DRtg on the Spurs, just behind Duncan and Kawhi. If it was just the system, he'd probably be more in line with the rest of the team instead of so much better.

Now, how exactly is Demar better than Green? You guys just keep saying he's better without giving a single reason why.

[JimiCliff]

Your arguments are just weak in my opinion. You think Green sucks because he plays with great players on a great team, but Demar is awesome because he's on a mediocre team playing mediocre to crappy basketball. A guy like Demar is who smart teams avoid in free agency, his stats are hollow and solely from him being given every single shot he wants to take, and his stats aren't even very good as they require you to completely ignore shooting percentages. What they get paid is irrelevant to how good they are, Middleton makes way less than Demar but is quite clearly the better player. Some dumb team is going to way overpay Demar because he averaged 20 points, I just don't want it to be us. Antoine Walker also was an all star who averaged 20 points per game.

I'm very curious to see which teams will go after him when he's a free agent.

[mcHAPPY]

Music to the District's ears!

Matt

What is DeMar DeRozan’s trade value? Would DeRozan return a pick in the 4-9 range (along with taking a bad contract to make the numbers work)? Say DeRozan for #4 and Calderon – would the Knicks bite? He will make $9.5M next season and a player option in 2016-17 which he likely would opt out of.

Steve Kyler

I can’t see why you’d trade an All-Star for a guy that is 19 right now… that is a start over move. As for whats his value in trade? I have no sense of it because he has not been shopped.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/ch...e-kyler-52615/

There are a lot of reasons why you trade him which have been discussed at great length in the forums and this thread.

My purpose in posting this is hopefully NBA Execs (minus Masai!) think that highly of him too.

[Joey]

"The District"?


And who's Steve Kylar? Never really heard of him. Does he have some good sources?

[DanH]

"The District"?


And who's Steve Kylar? Never really heard of him. Does he have some good sources?

Ran Hoops Hype (IIRC), then co-founded Basketball-Insiders. Short answer is, no, not really. Not like Woj or Stein do.