Everything Derozan

[DanH]

Since I'm apparently out of arguments. I'll show you I'm not. If you want to go in circles for the next 30 pages I'm down.



No I did not suggest that all people are equally capable of projecting the future, because some people have a better understanding of how things work than others. What I did suggest is that it is generally unwise to speak about the future in absolutes. Which anyone with any intelligence whatsoever would agree with. Not even sure what your point is about the RealGM thing. When I said "not so much here" it's because I didn't see the sentiment against Jonas so strongly when I was looking for it through the archives (mainly because it is a lot easier to google for such things on RealGM because it's a bigger site, and I also only joined here recently so I can't speak to it from memory). I'm not lumping any groups together, that's a straw man, what I'm saying is that Raptors fans (especially those on the internet) make a ton of big predictions about how things are going to go, and from what I've seen the general outlook or the most-shared outlook is very often wrong and flagrantly wrong at that.



Clearly, those are the people I'm talking about (and there are several of them) when I say speaking in absolutes or saying that DeRozan is all but a lock to get a max contract. If you're not one of those people (and from what I've seen you aren't) you're not exactly who I'm talking about when I refer to that. I'm not trying to sway people in my posts, because let's be real, we could sit here and argue about DeRozan until July 1st, 2016 and most people with strong opinions would stick to them no matter what facts are presented.



Disagree with the use of the term "distinct possibility" as that implies that it is very likely, which I disagree with. I would say that there is a possibility for sure, and most people would also agree with that (except special1, who I also think isn't being wise by making guarantees, btw), but I think it's a small one. Maybe the majority don't think he has to be traded, perhaps I'm getting that view because those are the people who post most frequently from what I've seen (you, mcHAPPY, Axel, some of the mods, etc). So it appears to be the general sentiment.



I'm having an equally hard-time figuring out what your point is.

My point is. It is not a guarantee that DeMar is going to get a max deal. I personally think there is a low probability of that. As such, I do not think DeMar MUST be traded like some other posters. In my opinion you only trade DeRozan now if it's a deal that you would accept EVEN IF his free agency wasn't impending. If DeRozan was locked in for 2016-17, would you ship him out for a late-teens pick? That's why I have a huge issue with OSC's original post (which is what sparked this argument btw, so I'm not just pulling it from nowhere like you're trying to make it seem).

I am also bracing for the worst case scenario. FWIW when Bosh was an impending UFA I wanted him traded for that rumoured Ellis-Biedrins deal, but that's because I felt it was very unlikely we'd be able to retain him. In this case I think it's very possible DeMar is retained for a fair price and as such I am not advocating for him to be dealt at all costs. If you can get a great deal for him, sure. But if you're selling him out of fear of FA for less than adequate value, that's where I have an issue.

Fair enough. I guess your post is aimed at a couple posters, primarily OSC. It certainly seemed aimed at a broader audience though that was probably a failure on my part to comprehend the context.

But a word of advice. If you are making a post of that magnitude, and it is not applying to a decent number of posters, you are wasting your time. I've mostly given up exchanging evidence with the most extreme DD supporters, because every conversation ends the same way. In any case, credit to you for coming back to it. Sure, it was a useless conversation, but that's our specialty around here.

[McRealistic]

My point is. It is not a guarantee that DeMar is going to get a max deal. I personally think there is a low probability of that. As such, I do not think DeMar MUST be traded like some other posters. In my opinion you only trade DeRozan now if it's a deal that you would accept EVEN IF his free agency wasn't impending. If DeRozan was locked in for 2016-17, would you ship him out for a late-teens pick? That's why I have a huge issue with OSC's original post (which is what sparked this argument btw, so I'm not just pulling it from nowhere like you're trying to make it seem).

I am also bracing for the worst case scenario. FWIW when Bosh was an impending UFA I wanted him traded for that rumoured Ellis-Biedrins deal, but that's because I felt it was very unlikely we'd be able to retain him. In this case I think it's very possible DeMar is retained for a fair price and as such I am not advocating for him to be dealt at all costs. If you can get a great deal for him, sure. But if you're selling him out of fear of FA for less than adequate value, that's where I have an issue.

This is what I call a logical and fair post. Keep it up man. Really enjoyed reading this.

[JWash]

Fair enough. I guess your post is aimed at a couple posters, primarily OSC. It certainly seemed aimed at a broader audience though that was probably a failure on my part to comprehend the context.

But a word of advice. If you are making a post of that magnitude, and it is not applying to a decent number of posters, you are wasting your time. I've mostly given up exchanging evidence with the most extreme DD supporters, because every conversation ends the same way. In any case, credit to you for coming back to it. Sure, it was a useless conversation, but that's our specialty around here.

Yeah this is why I didn't answer originally. I'm not against intelligent discussion and I don't mind people disagreeing with my points. I just don't really think we're on directly opposite sides of the point I was making that's why i dropped it. I picked it back up because people were making it seem like I had nothing to say and just copped out.

[mcHAPPY]

Must.
Stop.
Visiting.
This.
Thread.

[thead]

this thread makes me want to give up being a mod...and also life

[BS10]

Instead of arguing, how about you guys play a game of 1on1 and the loser gives the other a wedgie ))))

[MixxAOR]

You know, I want DeMar gone now.

It's not even because of his basketball abilities.

Good god. It's like drugs to you guys.

if he's traded I'll keep this thread alive just for lols

[consmap]

Should he stay or should he go?

[TrueTorontoFan]

How bout this. How do you think he will improve given the changes to the team thus far. We have a 3 and D guy who will obviously play 3rd banana. It will save Derozan's energy for the offensive end and allow him to play slightly less minutes. Do you think this may end up being the difference in having a more significant improvement in his game?

[Axel]

How bout this. How do you think he will improve given the changes to the team thus far. We have a 3 and D guy who will obviously play 3rd banana. It will save Derozan's energy for the offensive end and allow him to play slightly less minutes. Do you think this may end up being the difference in having a more significant improvement in his game?

Significant improvement is unlikely at this point in his career.

Marginal improvement in his offence depends a lot on what Casey installs as the offence. If it is similar to last year, dribble ISOs and screens for dribble ISOs, then Demar will not improve his efficiency. His usage needs to come way down to really stand much of a chance to become more efficient. He isn't a good enough scorer or playmaker to warrant such high usage, so it is inevitable that his efficiency would suffer.

[Quirk]

That seems like an odd metric for judging starters on ... especially considering Russell Westbrook missed 13 shots per game last year ...

Though Westbrook is a lot better than DeRozan, I'm not a fan, and DeRozan is not making up for all those missed shots with assists trhe way Westbrook is.

I'm not saying "missed shots" is some kind of usefull metric, just a short way of saying the dude misses a lot of shots, and since he doesn't do any thing else, he's not a good starter.

[stooley]

Just some food for thought :

Based on that per chart, derozan should get money closer to Ellis than max.

And some players do take pretty big leaps around this time in their careers. Guys like curry, billups, etc. So it's not impossible.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[JWash]

Just some food for thought :

Based on that per chart, derozan should get money closer to Ellis than max.

And some players do take pretty big leaps around this time in their careers. Guys like curry, billups, etc. So it's not impossible.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

I think DeRozan will get and deserve more than Ellis because he's younger and is a better defender at his position (SG).

I think the counter-argument against the "mid-20s leap" is that Billups for example didn't play all that consistently until his age 25 season (that was the first year imo that he really got full PG duties), and his age 26 season was when he took a leap and he continued to improve until he was about 29 or so then leveled off for 5 years.

Idk if Steph Curry has actually improved all that much the past 3 seasons. Imo he's basically been the same player, but the team around him as improved significantly allowing him to be even more efficient than he was previously (which was still bordering on 60% TS).

[Axel]

I think DeRozan will get and deserve more than Ellis because he's younger and is a better defender at his position (SG).

I think the counter-argument against the "mid-20s leap" is that Billups for example didn't play all that consistently until his age 25 season (that was the first year imo that he really got full PG duties), and his age 26 season was when he took a leap and he continued to improve until he was about 29 or so then leveled off for 5 years.

Idk if Steph Curry has actually improved all that much the past 3 seasons. Imo he's basically been the same player, but the team around him as improved significantly allowing him to be even more efficient than he was previously (which was still bordering on 60% TS).

Curry's ascension is also due in part to health. His third season (typically a big jump season for players) was ruined by injury and he only played 26 games. Since then, he's been great with a line of around 23PPG/8APG/4RPG. Basically doubled his 3PA in the last few seasons too, so some of it is the scheme.

[planetmars]

I personally would hate to lose this kid in free agency because some team over paid, and Masai lost out on an asset. I have to have faith in Masai that he's not going to get burnt. But I would hate it more if DD came back and was paid like a tier one player. Last thing this team needs is a contract that gets them stuck in mud.

If you think this is the summer of Masai.. just wait until next year. That's when the real big decision has to be made.