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  • DanH wrote: View Post
    DeMar did come into the league as a third banana behind Bargs and Bosh, then spent time as a second banana behind Bargs and even Gay.

    It was only when he was thrust into the first banana role that he played well - his efficiency didn't get better (much) but his high usage without his efficiency dropping too much had value. Of course, it is possible his good year there was a fluke, but hopefully if he stays on the team he can return to that level of performance.

    My concern is his history of underperforming as the second or third banana.
    banana 😀

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    • Emar has proven to only produce moderately when given everything.

      His best season still saw him at a net negative

      Comment


      • DanH wrote: View Post
        DeMar did come into the league as a third banana behind Bargs and Bosh, then spent time as a second banana behind Bargs and even Gay.

        It was only when he was thrust into the first banana role that he played well - his efficiency didn't get better (much) but his high usage without his efficiency dropping too much had value. Of course, it is possible his good year there was a fluke, but hopefully if he stays on the team he can return to that level of performance.

        My concern is his history of underperforming as the second or third banana.
        That's true, but I'd argue the Raps always had higher hopes (re: role) for DD than New Jersey had for RJ. DD came in extremely raw but was still a rookie starter on a team that hoped he would become a star. New Jersey only ever wanted RJ to be a great complimentary piece to their All-Star point guard. Unlike the Raptors trading/losing Bosh/Bargs/Gay and thinking "Don't worry, DeRozan will give us 20 ppg and lead the team," a couple months after NJ traded Kidd to the Mavs they traded RJ to the Bucks. There was no "Don't worry, we have RJ" plan.

        Advanced stats also like RJ a fair bit better (virtually across the board). His first 7 years in NJ he had .139 WS/48. DeMar's first 6 in TO have .082 WS/48.

        We'll see if DeMar can return to one-year-ago form this next season. That would be ideal for him and the Raps in the short term - what contract would that give him the leverage to demand though? Would you give it to him?
        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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        • Snooch wrote: View Post
          You dont pay or keep third bananas in hopes of finding a number 1 or 2
          I think what you really meant to say was "Paying first banana money to a third banana will not increase the potassium content".

          Comment


          • This doesn't really matter as a comparison, but just for fun:

            Jefferson's biggest contract was $12m/yr for 5 years (he was always behind Kidd and VC on that contract), which was 21% of the cap in the final year of that contract. What would the equivalent be for DD? 21% of the $108m cap would be a $22.7m/yr contract.
            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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            • Bendit wrote: View Post
              I think what you really meant to say was "Paying first banana money to a third banana will not increase the potassium content".
              (Insert Edna K laugh)
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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              • S.R. wrote: View Post
                That's true, but I'd argue the Raps always had higher hopes (re: role) for DD than New Jersey had for RJ. DD came in extremely raw but was still a rookie starter on a team that hoped he would become a star. New Jersey only ever wanted RJ to be a great complimentary piece to their All-Star point guard. Unlike the Raptors trading/losing Bosh/Bargs/Gay and thinking "Don't worry, DeRozan will give us 20 ppg and lead the team," a couple months after NJ traded Kidd to the Mavs they traded RJ to the Bucks. There was no "Don't worry, we have RJ" plan.

                Advanced stats also like RJ a fair bit better (virtually across the board). His first 7 years in NJ he had .139 WS/48. DeMar's first 6 in TO have .082 WS/48.

                We'll see if DeMar can return to one-year-ago form this next season. That would be ideal for him and the Raps in the short term - what contract would that give him the leverage to demand though? Would you give it to him?
                To be fair on this though, RJ spent most of his first 7 years on winning teams. The few years he wasn't his WS dropped below 1.00 even when his team was still about .500.

                DeRozan has basically play 1.5 seasons on a winning team. Most of the teams he's been on have been garbage. And actually last year, for most of the time he played the Raps were about .500

                Comment


                • I don't think anyone really thinks DeRozan is worth the max, but if a similar production player like RJ was making the equivalent of 23M per year under the new cap. I don't see how DeRozan isn't worth 20+M.

                  The RJ comparison only really serves to agree with what I've been saying all along.

                  Comment


                  • DanH wrote: View Post
                    DeMar did come into the league as a third banana behind Bargs and Bosh, then spent time as a second banana behind Bargs and even Gay.

                    It was only when he was thrust into the first banana role that he played well - his efficiency didn't get better (much) but his high usage without his efficiency dropping too much had value. Of course, it is possible his good year there was a fluke, but hopefully if he stays on the team he can return to that level of performance.

                    My concern is his history of underperforming as the second or third banana.
                    DeRozan was not a scoring option at all in his rookie year. In his 2nd year he was the #2 guy behind Bargs. He was behind Gay for a short period, and he was more efficient with Gay than without him iirc.

                    Idk why people keep trying to make the argument that DeRozan can't be a 2nd option. Part of the reason why his efficiency has gone down is BECAUSE he has the ball in his hands too much and has to attempt too many unassisted shots. For comparison, Klay Thompson was assisted on 70% of his baskets last year. And before someone says "he can shoot threes, that's why he can score off ball" he was assisted on almost 60% of his 2PT field goals as well compared to DD who's closer to 40%.

                    There is no logical argument against DeRozan improving his efficiency if he played next to a legit #1 option. It means less contested shots, more assisted shots, more clean looks, etc. Idk how that doesn't increase a player's efficiency but if someone would like to explain I'm all ears.

                    Comment


                    • JWash wrote: View Post
                      DeRozan was not a scoring option at all in his rookie year. In his 2nd year he was the #2 guy behind Bargs. He was behind Gay for a short period, and he was more efficient with Gay than without him iirc.
                      You are very mistaken, he was absolutely brutal with Gay.

                      JWash wrote: View Post
                      Idk why people keep trying to make the argument that DeRozan can't be a 2nd option. Part of the reason why his efficiency has gone down is BECAUSE he has the ball in his hands too much and has to attempt too many unassisted shots. For comparison, Klay Thompson was assisted on 70% of his baskets last year. And before someone says "he can shoot threes, that's why he can score off ball" he was assisted on almost 60% of his 2PT field goals as well compared to DD who's closer to 40%.

                      There is no logical argument against DeRozan improving his efficiency if he played next to a legit #1 option. It means less contested shots, more assisted shots, more clean looks, etc. Idk how that doesn't increase a player's efficiency but if someone would like to explain I'm all ears.
                      There is a huge arguement against it, Demar has never improved his efficiency playing here, He is already behind Lowry. And the system we play with, is one that is designed to maximize demars effectiveness on the court. Take that away and what does he have?

                      He has not range on his shot, he is a very poor shooter, he cannot create off dribble unless he is given half a court to work with in a 15 second long iso situation.

                      The problem is not that demar doesnt get assisted, the problem is that demar cannot be assisted

                      Comment


                      • DeRozan is not behind Lowry in the pecking order as a scorer.

                        Saying DeRozan cannot create off the dribble does not make sense. He's not Harden, but he creates off the dribble better than most starting SGs (especially amongst those who are pure SGs and no combo-guards).

                        "DeMar cannot be assisted"..... I give up.

                        Comment


                        • JWash wrote: View Post
                          DeRozan is not behind Lowry in the pecking order as a scorer.

                          Saying DeRozan cannot create off the dribble does not make sense. He's not Harden, but he creates off the dribble better than most starting SGs (especially amongst those who are pure SGs and no combo-guards).

                          "DeMar cannot be assisted"..... I give up.
                          Demar is behind Lowry, as lowry is the superior player, that is without arguement and contestation. to Say otherwise is just a showing of homerism.

                          Demar is terrible and creating off the dribble, what part of his 5 second dribbling, two baby steps in, one babystep back awkward fadeaway from 2 feet inside the three point line is "creating" Better than Most shooting Guards. lol. yeah ok.

                          Demar, in our current system, cannot be assisted, he needs the ball, he gets the ball. If he has a usage of 28%, what do you want to happen, someone to go over and take the ball from him, then pass it back to him?

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                          • And for the record the system we played last year did not maximize any of our guards' effectiveness on the court, except Lou who has made a career off iso-ball as a 6th man scorer.

                            Lowry's TS% dropped from 56.7% to an inefficient 52.7%
                            Ross TS% dropped from 55.3% to an inefficient 51.9%
                            Vasquez TS% dropped from 53.7% to an inefficient 51.4%
                            DeMar TS% dropped from 53.2% to an inefficient 51.0%

                            When you have 4 of your 5 rotation guards shooting well below league average in efficiency obviously the system is not helping anyone.

                            Pretending that a system that asks DD to iso like he's Kobe (when it's clear his skillset is more similar to an RJ, Josh Howard type player) and take contested shots is of any benefit to him is LUDICROUS.

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                            • Snooch wrote: View Post
                              Demar is behind Lowry, as lowry is the superior player, that is without arguement and contestation. to Say otherwise is just a showing of homerism.

                              Demar is terrible and creating off the dribble, what part of his 5 second dribbling, two baby steps in, one babystep back awkward fadeaway from 2 feet inside the three point line is "creating" Better than Most shooting Guards. lol. yeah ok.

                              Demar, in our current system, cannot be assisted, he needs the ball, he gets the ball. If he has a usage of 28%, what do you want to happen, someone to go over and take the ball from him, then pass it back to him?
                              DeRozan takes more shots than Lowry, and while Lowry is a better all-around PLAYER, it's clear as day that DD is the first option on offense and also the more potent scorer.

                              DeRozan is not "terrible" at creating off the dribble, he's just not good enough at it to warrant the iso-ball #1 option, Kobe offense that we run for him. Any player is going to be forced to take bad shots and be inefficient if they are overextended in their role and responsibilities.

                              You can still have a very high usage and score primarily on assisted baskets if your team moves the ball effectively, you're not the #1 option and you don't rely on isos. Klay Thompson's usage was also 28% last year but he scored almost 30% more of his baskets off assists than DD did.

                              Even Jimmy Butler who does not make or take many threes scored 63% of his baskets off assists last year operating primarily as a slasher.

                              Comment


                              • I don't get it at all.

                                Everyone pretty much universally agrees that better ball movement combined with players playing roles that fit their skillsets leads to more efficient and productive offense for everyone involved.

                                Yet it's clear that DeRozan enjoys neither of these benefits, but people are suggesting he'd be immune to them if he DID have them?

                                He can't pass, he can't create, he can't shoot, he can't dribble, he can't defend... how is he in the NBA? Let alone one of the best in the league at his position. Why the hell did Team USA take him if they thought he couldn't fit into a team-oriented gameplan? Why not take Hayward or Parsons?

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