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  • A DeRozan homer and a DeRozan hater arguing about DeRozan.

    Mamba Mentality

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    • JWash wrote: View Post
      I don't get it at all.

      Everyone pretty much universally agrees that better ball movement combined with players playing roles that fit their skillsets leads to more efficient and productive offense for everyone involved.

      Yet it's clear that DeRozan enjoys neither of these benefits, but people are suggesting he'd be immune to them if he DID have them?

      He can't pass, he can't create, he can't shoot, he can't dribble, he can't defend... how is he in the NBA? Let alone one of the best in the league at his position. Why the hell did Team USA take him if they thought he couldn't fit into a team-oriented gameplan? Why not take Hayward or Parsons?
      Demar has no off-ball game at all. It's probably the reason Coach K used him to facilitate. If DD was better or used coming off screens without the ball or cutting to the rim his inefficiency wouldn't be that bad. Right now handoffs ten feet behind the arc wastes a lot of time

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      • TRex wrote: View Post
        A DeRozan homer and a DeRozan hater arguing about DeRozan.

        Basically Sums up the last 445 pages.
        "Both teams played hard my man" - Sheed

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        • JWash wrote: View Post
          I don't get it at all.

          Everyone pretty much universally agrees that better ball movement combined with players playing roles that fit their skillsets leads to more efficient and productive offense for everyone involved.

          Yet it's clear that DeRozan enjoys neither of these benefits, but people are suggesting he'd be immune to them if he DID have them?

          He can't pass, he can't create, he can't shoot, he can't dribble, he can't defend... how is he in the NBA? Let alone one of the best in the league at his position. Why the hell did Team USA take him if they thought he couldn't fit into a team-oriented gameplan? Why not take Hayward or Parsons?
          Team USa has nothing to do with the nba, is that the best arguement you can come up with?

          Are you going to back that up with he Coaches selection last season?

          Of coourse he can dribble and stuff, he is in the nba, you are getting all dramatic in defense of poor little demar.


          I argue, that Demar will not improve with better ball movement because of:

          a) the ball is in his hands FAR less and as a result he cannot do what he has become accustomed to doing over the past 3 or 4 season...which is dribble out by the threepoint line and hoist a long shot.

          b) He is a bad shooter, teams with great ballmovement have great shooters that make it more effective, if one guy on the wing cannot shoot it allows for that defender to sag and therefore it reduces the effectiveness of the ball movement itself. See atlanta...one of the best at moving the ball last year, who was on the wings?

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          • TRex wrote: View Post
            A DeRozan homer and a DeRozan hater arguing about DeRozan.

            Im not a hater, i do not like his game, but I give credit where it is due.

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            • MACK11 wrote: View Post
              Basically Sums up the last 445 pages.
              You'd be hard pressed to find 6 pages that are any better.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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              • Snooch wrote: View Post
                Team USa has nothing to do with the nba, is that the best arguement you can come up with?

                Are you going to back that up with he Coaches selection last season?

                Of coourse he can dribble and stuff, he is in the nba, you are getting all dramatic in defense of poor little demar.


                I argue, that Demar will not improve with better ball movement because of:

                a) the ball is in his hands FAR less and as a result he cannot do what he has become accustomed to doing over the past 3 or 4 season...which is dribble out by the threepoint line and hoist a long shot.

                b) He is a bad shooter, teams with great ballmovement have great shooters that make it more effective, if one guy on the wing cannot shoot it allows for that defender to sag and therefore it reduces the effectiveness of the ball movement itself. See atlanta...one of the best at moving the ball last year, who was on the wings?
                Last time I'm going to respond to you before you go on ignore.

                a.) DeRozan does not benefit from taking these shots, they are exactly WHY he isn't efficient. If he didn't have to take them and instead took assisted shots or catch and drives and other more efficient scoring opportunities, his efficiency would rise.

                b.) You do not need to be an elite 3PT shooter to score or create in a ball movement offense. Assists can also be on drives, mid-range shots that exploit areas not being covered by the defense, and corner 3s (which DeMar can make at a high clip). Jimmy Butler is an example of this. 63% of his baskets assisted, even though he scores 79% of his points from 2PT range.

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                • JWash wrote: View Post
                  And for the record the system we played last year did not maximize any of our guards' effectiveness on the court, except Lou who has made a career off iso-ball as a 6th man scorer.

                  Lowry's TS% dropped from 56.7% to an inefficient 52.7%
                  Ross TS% dropped from 55.3% to an inefficient 51.9%
                  Vasquez TS% dropped from 53.7% to an inefficient 51.4%
                  DeMar TS% dropped from 53.2% to an inefficient 51.0%

                  When you have 4 of your 5 rotation guards shooting well below league average in efficiency obviously the system is not helping anyone.

                  Pretending that a system that asks DD to iso like he's Kobe (when it's clear his skillset is more similar to an RJ, Josh Howard type player) and take contested shots is of any benefit to him is LUDICROUS.
                  Demar is not a good shooter, the system didnt change last year from the year before.

                  Lowrys second half of the season was poor, dropping his numbers. and Ross sucked lst year trying to fit into a square peg to fit Demars needing of everything.

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                  • JWash wrote: View Post
                    Last time I'm going to respond to you before you go on ignore.

                    a.) DeRozan does not benefit from taking these shots, they are exactly WHY he isn't efficient. If he didn't have to take them and instead took assisted shots or catch and drives and other more efficient scoring opportunities, his efficiency would rise.

                    b.) You do not need to be an elite 3PT shooter to score or create in a ball movement offense. Assists can also be on drives, mid-range shots that exploit areas not being covered by the defense, and corner 3s (which DeMar can make at a high clip). Jimmy Butler is an example of this. 63% of his baskets assisted, even though he scores 79% of his points from 2PT range.
                    way to miss the point, or intentionally try to side step them

                    Demars efficiency is poor because he takes bad shots, but he cannot take good shots, because he is a poor shooter. Best way to try and milk demar is to get him into a spot he feels comfortable(the same role he has filled for three years now) and let him do what feels comfortable to him.

                    This is the same guy who said he doesnt klike open shots!

                    He prefers to shoot long twos and try to draw fouls on them, you dont think, with all of the basketball minds who have been tied to this team over the past 5 years havent once thought that...geezs, maybe demar could be better his blah blah blah?

                    They have, they tried, it failed.

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                    • Snooch wrote: View Post
                      way to miss the point, or intentionally try to side step them

                      Demars efficiency is poor because he takes bad shots, but he cannot take good shots, because he is a poor shooter. Best way to try and milk demar is to get him into a spot he feels comfortable(the same role he has filled for three years now) and let him do what feels comfortable to him.

                      This is the same guy who said he doesnt klike open shots!

                      He prefers to shoot long twos and try to draw fouls on them, you dont think, with all of the basketball minds who have been tied to this team over the past 5 years havent once thought that...geezs, maybe demar could be better his blah blah blah?

                      They have, they tried, it failed.
                      Demar is a great mid-range shooter nobody takes and hits as many terrible shots. However, he doesn't need to take so many terrible shots. If he took easier shots more often he wouldn't be shooting under 40%. There are easier ways to get 2 pts

                      Comment


                      • It certainly seems to me that DD prefers to operate with the ball in his hands to create his own shot (insert "dribble dribble pump fake") or via a designed play for him (off screen, catch and shoot).

                        He rarely seems to add much offensive value when neither of those things are happening. Part of that is Casey's system but part of that is DD. He doesn't move offball (Casey & DD to blame) doesn't set screens (more Casey) and doesn't stretch the D with his shooting (DD) or provide much ball movement (more DD).

                        When you imagine DD playing next to a star like Durant (just an example), do you envision DD getting significant opportunities to dribble create, or catch and shoot off of designed plays? Theoretically, the ball would predominantly be in the hands of Durant and those screens would be set for Durant.

                        So outside of some Casey wet dream of a "Durants turn, Demars turn" style offence, it is fair to question what DD would really do to contribute.

                        Now unless that star player is a PG (or LeBron) that can dominate the ball while both scoring and getting teammates good looks.

                        I think that is more where the idea that Demar can't be assisted comes from. He can't get his unless it is by design (either dribble or screen as per above). He isn't a stretch the floor guy who forces defensive attention away from the hoop. Carrolle would represent a more typical secondary player. Guy who can move without the ball to find open spaces on the perimeter and then trust the star to get him the ball for the catch and shoot.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                        • Everything Demar Derozan

                          JWash wrote: View Post
                          Last time I'm going to respond to you before you go on ignore.
                          If you are going to put him (or anyone) on ignore, just do so without trying to add the last word. No reason to say "I'm going to ignore you after I get my last say". It's a bush league move.
                          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                          • JWash wrote: View Post
                            DeRozan was not a scoring option at all in his rookie year. In his 2nd year he was the #2 guy behind Bargs. He was behind Gay for a short period, and he was more efficient with Gay than without him iirc.

                            Idk why people keep trying to make the argument that DeRozan can't be a 2nd option. Part of the reason why his efficiency has gone down is BECAUSE he has the ball in his hands too much and has to attempt too many unassisted shots. For comparison, Klay Thompson was assisted on 70% of his baskets last year. And before someone says "he can shoot threes, that's why he can score off ball" he was assisted on almost 60% of his 2PT field goals as well compared to DD who's closer to 40%.

                            There is no logical argument against DeRozan improving his efficiency if he played next to a legit #1 option. It means less contested shots, more assisted shots, more clean looks, etc. Idk how that doesn't increase a player's efficiency but if someone would like to explain I'm all ears.
                            DeRozan had a usage rate of 18% in his first year. Bosh was 28%, Bargs was 22%. The other two starters (Hedo and Jose) were also in that 18% range, but both were more passers than scorers. He was probably sharing the third banana role, but he was by no means ignored on offence.

                            DeRozan, since his rookie year, usage versus TS%:

                            09-10: 55.4 TS%, 18.1 USG%
                            10-11: 53.0, 23.2
                            11-12: 50.3, 25.0
                            12-13: 52.3, 24.2
                            13-14: 53.2, 28.0
                            14-15: 51.0, 28.4

                            Could you point out to me the correlation between his usage and efficiency? His highest efficiency year was his lowest usage one (third banana year). His second highest efficiency year is in his second highest usage year (his all-star campaign). Reality is there is no correlation, he tends to float just over 50% TS% (a variation of 3% over the course of 4 years is really not particularly significant, especially with no trend to project) regardless of his usage. So, my prediction is that if given a smaller role, he will reduce his usage rate but his TS% will remain inefficient. The only reason his 53% TS% in his all-star campaign was considered acceptable is because a) he did carry such a high usage, and high usage with meh efficiency is valuable to a team, and b) he improved his assist rate significantly to an acceptable (not great, but acceptable) level.

                            Here's another fun fact - DeRozan's assisted baskets have pretty much no correlation with his efficiency either.

                            Percentage of DeMar's baskets that are assisted by year, versus TS%:
                            09-10: 55.4 TS%, 68 AST'd%
                            10-11: 53.0, 59
                            11-12: 50.3, 64
                            12-13: 52.3, 55
                            13-14: 53.2, 50
                            14-15: 51.0, 45

                            Are you seeing a correlation there? I'm seeing one between usage and assists, but again with zero bearing on his efficiency.

                            It all makes good sense to say that DD with more open looks, less dribbling, etc would be more efficient. But we've seen this movie, we know how it ends, and it ain't like that.
                            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                            • Snooch wrote: View Post
                              Im not a hater, i do not like his game, but I give credit where it is due.
                              Right......
                              Mamba Mentality

                              Comment


                              • Axel wrote: View Post
                                It certainly seems to me that DD prefers to operate with the ball in his hands to create his own shot (insert "dribble dribble pump fake") or via a designed play for him (off screen, catch and shoot).

                                He rarely seems to add much offensive value when neither of those things are happening. Part of that is Casey's system but part of that is DD. He doesn't move offball (Casey & DD to blame) doesn't set screens (more Casey) and doesn't stretch the D with his shooting (DD) or provide much ball movement (more DD).

                                When you imagine DD playing next to a star like Durant (just an example), do you envision DD getting significant opportunities to dribble create, or catch and shoot off of designed plays? Theoretically, the ball would predominantly be in the hands of Durant and those screens would be set for Durant.

                                So outside of some Casey wet dream of a "Durants turn, Demars turn" style offence, it is fair to question what DD would really do to contribute.

                                Now unless that star player is a PG (or LeBron) that can dominate the ball while both scoring and getting teammates good looks.

                                I think that is more where the idea that Demar can't be assisted comes from. He can't get his unless it is by design (either dribble or screen as per above). He isn't a stretch the floor guy who forces defensive attention away from the hoop. Carrolle would represent a more typical secondary player. Guy who can move without the ball to find open spaces on the perimeter and then trust the star to get him the ball for the catch and shoot.
                                This sort of thinking is why earlier in his career I advocated for him being a 6th man type. But unfortunately he's gotten to the point where due to his over-usage, he is now cemented as a starter in the league's mind and probably his own, a role in which his value is limited due to his dependency on having the ball and lack of true star power (which makes one worthy of taking on the responsibility of having the ball all the time in the starting lineup).
                                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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