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  • A better coach would do wonders. Look at Carlisle and Ellis. He was a notorious chucker before Dallas

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    • he's still a notorious chucker that they let walk
      @sweatpantsjer

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      • Ellis is still a chucker.
        Mamba Mentality

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        • Axel wrote: View Post
          It certainly seems to me that DD prefers to operate with the ball in his hands to create his own shot (insert "dribble dribble pump fake") or via a designed play for him (off screen, catch and shoot).

          He rarely seems to add much offensive value when neither of those things are happening. Part of that is Casey's system but part of that is DD. He doesn't move offball (Casey & DD to blame) doesn't set screens (more Casey) and doesn't stretch the D with his shooting (DD) or provide much ball movement (more DD).

          When you imagine DD playing next to a star like Durant (just an example), do you envision DD getting significant opportunities to dribble create, or catch and shoot off of designed plays? Theoretically, the ball would predominantly be in the hands of Durant and those screens would be set for Durant.

          So outside of some Casey wet dream of a "Durants turn, Demars turn" style offence, it is fair to question what DD would really do to contribute.

          Now unless that star player is a PG (or LeBron) that can dominate the ball while both scoring and getting teammates good looks.

          I think that is more where the idea that Demar can't be assisted comes from. He can't get his unless it is by design (either dribble or screen as per above). He isn't a stretch the floor guy who forces defensive attention away from the hoop. Carrolle would represent a more typical secondary player. Guy who can move without the ball to find open spaces on the perimeter and then trust the star to get him the ball for the catch and shoot.
          You can still operate with the ball in your hands as a secondary option, in fact you can still be assisted while operating with the ball in your hands. There are several examples of 2nd and even 3rd options to superstars who score a lot with the ball in their hands whether that be drives, P&R, coming off screens or what have you. The superstar will not have the ball for 100% of the game.

          The difference is that playing with a superstar those possessions can now be converted into more efficient offense because you're catching the ball in better spots when you're already in a position to score as opposed to having to create that position for yourself AND convert the basket. Jimmy Butler has a slashing/get fouled and go to the line game and is able to score 20ppg much more efficiently than DD simply because the Bulls move the ball way better than we do (14th in assists, compared to us at 27th). He can shoot the 3, yeah, but he's not at all prolific from there and he doesn't score most of his points by shooting catch and shoot 3 balls.

          Yes, even next to a star like KD (especially KD who can operate off and on-ball with almost equal effectiveness) DD would still have opportunities to create while also getting easier looks in different situations due to KD's ability to create and draw defensive attention.

          DeMarre Carroll is not a typical secondary player on any type of contending team unless by secondary player you mean role player. He'd be more like what Barnes was for GS or Danny Green for SAS. A second option for a title contending team is usually a guy who can get his and create but isn't good enough or consistent enough at it to warrant being THE GUY.

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          • JWash wrote: View Post
            You can still operate with the ball in your hands as a secondary option, in fact you can still be assisted while operating with the ball in your hands. There are several examples of 2nd and even 3rd options to superstars who score a lot with the ball in their hands whether that be drives, P&R, coming off screens or what have you. The superstar will not have the ball for 100% of the game.

            The difference is that playing with a superstar those possessions can now be converted into more efficient offense because you're catching the ball in better spots when you're already in a position to score as opposed to having to create that position for yourself AND convert the basket. Jimmy Butler has a slashing/get fouled and go to the line game and is able to score 20ppg much more efficiently than DD simply because the Bulls move the ball way better than we do (14th in assists, compared to us at 27th). He can shoot the 3, yeah, but he's not at all prolific from there and he doesn't score most of his points by shooting catch and shoot 3 balls.

            Yes, even next to a star like KD (especially KD who can operate off and on-ball with almost equal effectiveness) DD would still have opportunities to create while also getting easier looks in different situations due to KD's ability to create and draw defensive attention.

            DeMarre Carroll is not a typical secondary player on any type of contending team unless by secondary player you mean role player. He'd be more like what Barnes was for GS or Danny Green for SAS. A second option for a title contending team is usually a guy who can get his and create but isn't good enough or consistent enough at it to warrant being THE GUY.
            I think GS illustrated exactly why DD shouldn't operate with the ball in his hands. He doesn't pass the ball well. He doesn't make good decisions with the ball (rather force shot than pass). He doesn't have good shot selection.

            The Warriors exploited DDs game in the worst way. He doesn't elevate the opportunities of those around him because he lacks the awareness/vision/passing to take advantage of the collapsing Defence.

            Carrolle showed a lot of the skills of a tertiary offensive player. Off ball movement and shooting while playing good defence. DD doesn't.
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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            • DanH wrote: View Post
              This sort of thinking is why earlier in his career I advocated for him being a 6th man type. But unfortunately he's gotten to the point where due to his over-usage, he is now cemented as a starter in the league's mind and probably his own, a role in which his value is limited due to his dependency on having the ball and lack of true star power (which makes one worthy of taking on the responsibility of having the ball all the time in the starting lineup).
              Also could see DeRozan making sense as a 6th man if you have two superior scorers in the starting 5.

              I also disagree that DeRozan wouldn't be willing to take on such a role if asked and it was best for the team. Andre Iguodala had a similar-ish role to DeRozan after AI left Philly, and he was able to take a 6th man role (and not even really a high usage 6th man) for a team to which he didn't really have any loyalty and only had one established superstar.

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              • JWash wrote: View Post
                Also could see DeRozan making sense as a 6th man if you have two superior scorers in the starting 5.

                I also disagree that DeRozan wouldn't be willing to take on such a role if asked and it was best for the team. Andre Iguodala had a similar-ish role to DeRozan after AI left Philly, and he was able to take a 6th man role (and not even really a high usage 6th man) for a team to which he didn't really have any loyalty and only had one established superstar.
                Demar as 6th always made sense as his eventual role. Feast on weaker units and doesn't require much support to score.

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                • Axel wrote: View Post
                  I think GS illustrated exactly why DD shouldn't operate with the ball in his hands. He doesn't pass the ball well. He doesn't make good decisions with the ball (rather force shot than pass). He doesn't have good shot selection.

                  The Warriors exploited DDs game in the worst way. He doesn't elevate the opportunities of those around him because he lacks the awareness/vision/passing to take advantage of the collapsing Defence.

                  Carrolle showed a lot of the skills of a tertiary offensive player. Off ball movement and shooting while playing good defence. DD doesn't.
                  Actually DeRozan does pass well and make good decisions, he's just asked to be a creator for himself and others too much in the #1 option role. Combine that with poorly coached teams with bad schemes and yep you're going to have an efficient player.

                  And yup Warriors did exploit DD's inability to be a #1 option on a legitimate title contender, not arguing with that at all and never have.

                  The fact is that guards/wings that are effective with the ball in their hands, but not enough so to be #1 options have had critical roles on championship teams and championship-level teams as 2nd or 3rd scoring options. So to just say flat out that DeRozan can't do that so he has no real use to an NBA team is kind of dumb.

                  Manu, Josh Howard, Richard Jefferson, Rip Hamilton, Iguodala, Eddie Jones, Glen Rice, Rashard Lewis, etc.

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                  • JWash wrote: View Post
                    Actually DeRozan does pass well and make good decisions, he's just asked to be a creator for himself and others too much in the #1 option role. Combine that with poorly coached teams with bad schemes and yep you're going to have an efficient player.

                    And yup Warriors did exploit DD's inability to be a #1 option on a legitimate title contender, not arguing with that at all and never have.

                    The fact is that guards/wings that are effective with the ball in their hands, but not enough so to be #1 options have had critical roles on championship teams and championship-level teams as 2nd or 3rd scoring options. So to just say flat out that DeRozan can't do that so he has no real use to an NBA team is kind of dumb.

                    Manu, Josh Howard, Richard Jefferson, Rip Hamilton, Iguodala, Eddie Jones, Glen Rice, Rashard Lewis, etc.
                    They key difference is that those support wings were more of the 3&D variety, which are DeRozan's greatest weaknesses.

                    The other thing that has come to mind while reading this discussion, is that by having the ball in his hands less often (as the 3rd banana), DD would have far less opportunities to draw fouls. Without getting to the line as frequently as he has the past couple seasons, his efficiency stats would take a further hit.

                    It just seems like DD's style of play and his greatest strengths are aligned to be a #1 player (likely because he has always emulated Kobe), but he's just not good enough to play that role. Suddenly, when thrust into a #2/#3 type role, he doesn't have the natural skillset to fit. That's exactly why people were pointing to Ross (a 3&D style player) as being a better fit alongside Lowry and Gay; it's not always a matter of who is the better player, but who fits into the particular role better (and obviously Ross never blossomed into the 3&D player he projected to be).

                    I've also said for years that DeRozan would be an ideal 6th man. However, after years of being the #1/#1a/b type player and the face of the franchise, I don't believe that he'd accept that role (if he was closer to 30 then maybe). More importantly, I am 99.9% certain that he'd never accept a salary to match that role ($7-12M per season).
                    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Jul 14, 2015, 03:37 PM.

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                    • ...this thread

                      Man oh man
                      "Stop eating your sushi."
                      "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                      "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                      - Jack Armstrong

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                      • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        They key difference is that those support wings were more of the 3&D variety, which are DeRozan's greatest weaknesses.

                        The other thing that has come to mind while reading this discussion, is that by having the ball in his hands less often (as the 3rd banana), DD would have far less opportunities to draw fouls. Without getting to the line as frequently as he has the past couple seasons, his efficiency stats would take a further hit.

                        It just seems like DD's style of play and his greatest strengths are aligned to be a #1 player (likely because he has always emulated Kobe), but he's just not good enough to play that role. Suddenly, when thrust into a #2/#3 type role, he doesn't have the natural skillset to fit. That's exactly why people were pointing to Ross (a 3&D style player) as being a better fit alongside Lowry and Gay; it's not always a matter of who is the better player, but who fits into the particular role better (and obviously Ross never blossomed into the 3&D player he projected to be).
                        First of all I disagree that those other guys were 3&D players. Which one of those guys I listed was both a prolific 3PT shooter and a good defender? Maybe Eddie Jones? Glen Rice wasn't when he was the 3rd option on the Lakers for their title in 2000.

                        As for the rest it's the same argument. I think DD would do better playing next to a legit superstar in a well designed offense, while you and some others don't. FWIW even Klay Thompson was only about average in efficiency before the Warriors installed Kerr's offense and Curry fully emerged as a superstar.
                        Last edited by JWash; Tue Jul 14, 2015, 03:43 PM.

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                        • Can DeMar just leave the team?

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                          • JWash wrote: View Post
                            First of all I disagree that those other guys were 3&D players. Which one of those guys I listed was both a prolific 3PT shooter and a good defender? Maybe Eddie Jones? Glen Rice wasn't when he was the 3rd option on the Lakers for their title in 2000.

                            As for the rest it's the same argument. I think DD would do better playing next to a legit superstar in a well designed offense, while you and some others don't. FWIW even Klay Thompson was only about average in efficiency before the Warriors installed Kerr's offense and Curry fully emerged as a superstar.
                            All of those players were either better defenders, better shooters or both than DD. Glen Rice in 2000 was a shell of his former self (two bad knees has that effect). DD's skill set simply doesn't translate to an effective option to playing off-ball.

                            Klay Thompson is also younger and developing. DD isn't really at that point in his career.
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                            • Axel wrote: View Post
                              All of those players were either better defenders, better shooters or both than DD. Glen Rice in 2000 was a shell of his former self (two bad knees has that effect). DD's skill set simply doesn't translate to an effective option to playing off-ball.

                              Klay Thompson is also younger and developing. DD isn't really at that point in his career.
                              No they weren't, and DD was also better than a lot of them at other things as well.

                              Klay is 6 months younger than DD...

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                              • Being a 2nd option doesn't mean that you're playing entirely off-the-ball. It means that you have less responsibilities for creating offense for yourself and teammates and do not get as much defensive attention.

                                Just because you're not the #1 guy doesn't mean that all of a sudden every time you touch the ball it needs to be a catch and shoot or dunk. You can still catch & drive, run pick and rolls and do other things besides just being essentially a role player on the offensive end.

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