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  • I voted yes in this poll, which only has 34 votes even though the thread has nearly 9,000 posts. Unbelievable how kids these days don't exercise their hard-earned democratic right to vote. Too busy drinking 40's and playing X-Box? Useless bums.
    "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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    • JWash wrote: View Post
      No they weren't, and DD was also better than a lot of them at other things as well.

      Klay is 6 months younger than DD...
      Ok without going back to look at your post, but Manu is better in every facet of basketball. Howard was a superior defender. RJ was a better defender and shooter (although shooter is closer). Glen Rice was way better shooter. Eddie Jones was the original 3&D winger. Rip might be the closest, but I think he was a better defender.

      How many years in the NBA for Klay vs DD? Development takes some time and age isn't the only factor.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

      Comment


      • Well, I'm glad we skipped over my stats based critique of DeMar as a non-primary option. Wouldn't have wanted this to devolve into a discussion where we support our points with evidence.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • DanH wrote: View Post
          Well, I'm glad we skipped over my stats based critique of DeMar as a non-primary option. Wouldn't have wanted this to devolve into a discussion where we support our points with evidence.
          I didn't see it. No need to be a jack about it.
          Last edited by JWash; Tue Jul 14, 2015, 05:25 PM.

          Comment


          • DanH wrote: View Post
            DeRozan had a usage rate of 18% in his first year. Bosh was 28%, Bargs was 22%. The other two starters (Hedo and Jose) were also in that 18% range, but both were more passers than scorers. He was probably sharing the third banana role, but he was by no means ignored on offence.

            DeRozan, since his rookie year, usage versus TS%:

            09-10: 55.4 TS%, 18.1 USG%
            10-11: 53.0, 23.2
            11-12: 50.3, 25.0
            12-13: 52.3, 24.2
            13-14: 53.2, 28.0
            14-15: 51.0, 28.4

            Could you point out to me the correlation between his usage and efficiency? His highest efficiency year was his lowest usage one (third banana year). His second highest efficiency year is in his second highest usage year (his all-star campaign). Reality is there is no correlation, he tends to float just over 50% TS% (a variation of 3% over the course of 4 years is really not particularly significant, especially with no trend to project) regardless of his usage. So, my prediction is that if given a smaller role, he will reduce his usage rate but his TS% will remain inefficient. The only reason his 53% TS% in his all-star campaign was considered acceptable is because a) he did carry such a high usage, and high usage with meh efficiency is valuable to a team, and b) he improved his assist rate significantly to an acceptable (not great, but acceptable) level.

            Here's another fun fact - DeRozan's assisted baskets have pretty much no correlation with his efficiency either.

            Percentage of DeMar's baskets that are assisted by year, versus TS%:
            09-10: 55.4 TS%, 68 AST'd%
            10-11: 53.0, 59
            11-12: 50.3, 64
            12-13: 52.3, 55
            13-14: 53.2, 50
            14-15: 51.0, 45

            Are you seeing a correlation there? I'm seeing one between usage and assists, but again with zero bearing on his efficiency.

            It all makes good sense to say that DD with more open looks, less dribbling, etc would be more efficient. But we've seen this movie, we know how it ends, and it ain't like that.
            I'm not saying there's necessarily a direct correlation between TS% and AST% or USG% (especially not USG)

            What I'm saying is that having a larger role than your skillset can fulfill in a poorly designed/run offense can negatively effect your efficiency. Period.

            Comment


            • JWash wrote: View Post
              I'm not saying there's necessarily a direct correlation between TS% and AST% or USG% (especially not USG)

              What I'm saying is that having a larger role than your skillset can fulfill in a poorly designed/run offense can negatively effect your efficiency. Period.
              I'm trying hard to see how your first sentence doesn't directly contradict your second sentence, but I just can't do it. If "a larger role" isn't reflected in USG% and offensive efficiency for a scorer isn't reflected in TS%, then what are we talking about?

              JWash wrote: View Post
              I didn't see it. No need to be a jack about it.
              Of all the people to write this, it was you. I LOL'd.
              "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

              Comment


              • JWash wrote: View Post
                I didn't see it. No need to be a jack about it.
                Please refrain from posts like this.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                Comment


                • S.R. wrote: View Post
                  I'm trying hard to see how your first sentence doesn't directly contradict your second sentence, but I just can't do it. If "a larger role" isn't reflected in USG% and offensive efficiency for a scorer isn't reflected in TS%, then what are we talking about?
                  .
                  I very much struggled to comprehend that part too.

                  Usage perfectly reflects role. Efficiency can be measured in others way too I guess...? Perhaps there are other stats to support his claim that demonstrate the opposite than TS% did.
                  Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                  If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                  Comment


                  • S.R. wrote: View Post
                    Of all the people to write this, it was you. I LOL'd.
                    So did I!

                    Comment


                    • Since when is being a jack an insult? Jack Nicholson is pretty cool for example.

                      Comment


                      • planetmars wrote: View Post
                        Since when is being a jack an insult? Jack Nicholson is pretty cool for example.
                        But Jack Nicholson is actually cool.

                        Dan's a nerd so bring called cool is insulting.

                        Comment


                        • DanH wrote: View Post
                          DeRozan had a usage rate of 18% in his first year. Bosh was 28%, Bargs was 22%. The other two starters (Hedo and Jose) were also in that 18% range, but both were more passers than scorers. He was probably sharing the third banana role, but he was by no means ignored on offence.

                          DeRozan, since his rookie year, usage versus TS%:

                          09-10: 55.4 TS%, 18.1 USG%
                          10-11: 53.0, 23.2
                          11-12: 50.3, 25.0
                          12-13: 52.3, 24.2
                          13-14: 53.2, 28.0
                          14-15: 51.0, 28.4

                          Could you point out to me the correlation between his usage and efficiency? His highest efficiency year was his lowest usage one (third banana year). His second highest efficiency year is in his second highest usage year (his all-star campaign). Reality is there is no correlation, he tends to float just over 50% TS% (a variation of 3% over the course of 4 years is really not particularly significant, especially with no trend to project) regardless of his usage. So, my prediction is that if given a smaller role, he will reduce his usage rate but his TS% will remain inefficient. The only reason his 53% TS% in his all-star campaign was considered acceptable is because a) he did carry such a high usage, and high usage with meh efficiency is valuable to a team, and b) he improved his assist rate significantly to an acceptable (not great, but acceptable) level.

                          Here's another fun fact - DeRozan's assisted baskets have pretty much no correlation with his efficiency either.

                          Percentage of DeMar's baskets that are assisted by year, versus TS%:
                          09-10: 55.4 TS%, 68 AST'd%
                          10-11: 53.0, 59
                          11-12: 50.3, 64
                          12-13: 52.3, 55
                          13-14: 53.2, 50
                          14-15: 51.0, 45

                          Are you seeing a correlation there? I'm seeing one between usage and assists, but again with zero bearing on his efficiency.

                          It all makes good sense to say that DD with more open looks, less dribbling, etc would be more efficient. But we've seen this movie, we know how it ends, and it ain't like that.
                          Now, I love me some critique of derozan. But looking at the usage vs. TS%, you have to at least consider - easily the highest TS% while also the lowest usage rate of his career, when he was but a lowly rookie. So you have to consider that in that same situation in his prime, he could add an extra 5 to 10% onto that TS.
                          "Stop eating your sushi."
                          "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                          "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                          - Jack Armstrong

                          Comment


                          • JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                            Now, I love me some critique of derozan. But looking at the usage vs. TS%, you have to at least consider - easily the highest TS% while also the lowest usage rate of his career, when he was but a lowly rookie. So you have to consider that in that same situation in his prime, he could add an extra 5 to 10% onto that TS.
                            Oh god. So terribly written. You know what I'm saying though.
                            "Stop eating your sushi."
                            "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                            "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                            - Jack Armstrong

                            Comment


                            • Axel wrote: View Post
                              Ok without going back to look at your post, but Manu is better in every facet of basketball. Howard was a superior defender. RJ was a better defender and shooter (although shooter is closer). Glen Rice was way better shooter. Eddie Jones was the original 3&D winger. Rip might be the closest, but I think he was a better defender.

                              How many years in the NBA for Klay vs DD? Development takes some time and age isn't the only factor.
                              Klay was drafted in 2011 and DD was drafted in 2009
                              @Chr1st1anL

                              Comment


                              • JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                                Now, I love me some critique of derozan. But looking at the usage vs. TS%, you have to at least consider - easily the highest TS% while also the lowest usage rate of his career, when he was but a lowly rookie. So you have to consider that in that same situation in his prime, he could add an extra 5 to 10% onto that TS.
                                Different coach, different offense

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