Bayless: Starter vs. Bench numbers

[heinz57]

And to those who criticise his, "he plays like a SG" style, that may be true - in that he scores like one - but he's also dropping a good number of assists. In fact, 7.5 assists as a starter is good for 11th in the league. So I don't really know what the problem is with him scoring. Would you rather have a point guard who can't score or create his own shot?

personally i wasnt criticising with the "he plays like a SG".. i just think that's his style.. its not a bad thing.. not every PG has to be the second coming of stockton.

i think he should embrace the combo guard role, instead of pressing the "i'm a PG" thing.. and he'll be fine

[WJF]

Lets see how he fares in more games, sure he had a few decent games earlier in the season when Jose was out, he has also put together two back to back solid games, but what will happen if the next one is 7 points on 3 for 12 shooting with 6 assists and 5 turnovers?

Way to early to anoint him the PG of the future, we do not decide on who we pick in the draft because Bayless is on the team.

[jeff_hostetler]

personally i wasnt criticising with the "he plays like a SG".. i just think that's his style.. its not a bad thing.. not every PG has to be the second coming of stockton.

i think he should embrace the combo guard role, instead of pressing the "i'm a PG" thing.. and he'll be fine

I disagree. There's more than one type of point guard, just as there is more than one kind of power forward, for example. Just because he likes to score, can score, and can create a good scoring opportunity for himself doesn't mean he shouldn't be classified a PG. Barbosa, who exclusively looks to score may find that combo guard designation more apt, because he doesn't do the primary job of the PG (to get other players good looks) but he can play there if it's needed. But Bayless gets his assists - and a good number of them - and he can find the open man. He's able to do this because he's such a scoring threat. A scoring PG is still a PG, so long as he doesn't ignore his other responsibilities.

[jeff_hostetler]

Way to early to anoint him the PG of the future, we do not decide on who we pick in the draft because Bayless is on the team.

I definitely agree about that. However, say Bayless took over the starting role earlier, and he was able to put up the numbers he has as a starter for the whole season. A 22 year old guard, playing his first real season of NBA basketball, who puts up 16 points, 8 assists and a steal per game, shooting close to 50% from the floor.

Would you still take Irving (doesn't count if you plan on trading him), knowing you have a BIG hole at C and could use some help at the 3?

[slaw]

Would you still take Irving (doesn't count if you plan on trading him), knowing you have a BIG hole at C and could use some help at the 3?

No, cause if Bayless is putting up those kinds of numbers over 82 games he is one of the better PGs in the NBA. I just don't know if he can sustain that over 82 games. That's what our talent evaluators (BC, Maurizio, etc.) get paid the big bucks for but I just have little confidence in their decision-making after 5 years.

My bias is that I believe the holes at the 5 and 3 are far more glaring than at the point. The Raps can manage with Calderon/Bayless at the point but they can't manage with Bargs and James Johnson.

[WJF]

I definitely agree about that. However, say Bayless took over the starting role earlier, and he was able to put up the numbers he has as a starter for the whole season. A 22 year old guard, playing his first real season of NBA basketball, who puts up 16 points, 8 assists and a steal per game, shooting close to 50% from the floor.

Would you still take Irving (doesn't count if you plan on trading him), knowing you have a BIG hole at C and could use some help at the 3?

If Irving is clearly the best player and we pick first I would take him no question. Does 16 and 7.5 really mean a guy plays well or is a good fit for the team? I am not saying Bayless has not shown improvements over the last 2 games, but I would just like everyone to remember all the players we have had in the past that have teased us with a stretch of good games only to disappear for the rest of their career....Mike James, Tracy Murray, Keon Clark, John Wallace. I would hate to see us trade hi and he becomes the next Chauncey Billups as well.

[heinz57]

I disagree. There's more than one type of point guard, just as there is more than one kind of power forward, for example. Just because he likes to score, can score, and can create a good scoring opportunity for himself doesn't mean he shouldn't be classified a PG. Barbosa, who exclusively looks to score may find that combo guard designation more apt, because he doesn't do the primary job of the PG (to get other players good looks) but he can play there if it's needed. But Bayless gets his assists - and a good number of them - and he can find the open man. He's able to do this because he's such a scoring threat. A scoring PG is still a PG, so long as he doesn't ignore his other responsibilities.

i don't disagree with you.. what im saying, is that you can play him at the 1, and switch him to the 2 for small ball... he has the skillset for it... i'm not saying he shouldn't be a PG... i'm saying he shouldn't be pigeon-holed as a PG

it's like, is tim duncan a C or a PF? does it matter? not really... same kinda deal, at a different position and on a much lower tier of talent

[jeff_hostetler]

i don't disagree with you.. what im saying, is that you can play him at the 1, and switch him to the 2 for small ball... he has the skillset for it... i'm not saying he shouldn't be a PG... i'm saying he shouldn't be pigeon-holed as a PG

it's like, is tim duncan a C or a PF? does it matter? not really... same kinda deal, at a different position and on a much lower tier of talent

Ah.

If Irving is clearly the best player and we pick first I would take him no question. Does 16 and 7.5 really mean a guy plays well or is a good fit for the team? I am not saying Bayless has not shown improvements over the last 2 games, but I would just like everyone to remember all the players we have had in the past that have teased us with a stretch of good games only to disappear for the rest of their career....Mike James, Tracy Murray, Keon Clark, John Wallace. I would hate to see us trade hi and he becomes the next Chauncey Billups as well.

Yeah. All I'm really trying to say is that I saw no reason (other than showcasing Calderon) why Bayless shouldn't have had the opportunity to really show the team what he was as a player. All we saw (the fans, not the team) were glimpses as a result of too little playing time. That's frustrating, given what type of season this was. It would have been useful information.

Side note: Bayless was taken 11th in a draft where 7 players taken ahead of him might become, or already are, all-stars (Rose, Beasely, Mayo, Westbrook, Love, Gordon, Lopez). It doesn't mean anything, I just thought it was interesting (please no, "I suppose that means you think Joe Alexander is going to be an all-star then?").

[CalgaryRapsFan]

The one concern I have about Bayless is that he is eerily similar to T.J. Ford. When he starts he plays hard and tries his best, even if his instinct is not to be a pass-first PG. However, his biggest character flaw is revealed when he doesn't start - he seems like a completely different person and different player - he sulks and whines and clearly does not put nearly the same amount of effort into the game. Yes, he can be a good player, when he starts. I just hate players like him (and Ford before him) who put themselves ahead of the team with the "start me or else" mentality. For all his skill, I hate him!

[c.e.]

Is it just me, or does Bayless remind you of a poorman's derrick rose. The way he gets to the basket and style of play is certainly like of Rose, except he's not on his level what so ever. Bayless puts up Rose like numbers whenever he starts, arent we a .500 team when he starts?

[mcHAPPY]

PLEASE NOTE ESPN STATS WERE NOT UPDATED WHEN THIS WAS POSTED THIS MORNING!

Actual starting stats are this:

Starter:
9GP 33.1MPG 16.7PPG 49.1FG% 31.3 3pt% 79.1FT% 3.8REB 7.6AST 2.3TO 0.9STL

Off Bench:
56GP 17.3MPG 6.6PPG .387FG% .3333P% .807FT% 2.0REB 3.0AST 0.4STL 1.5TO

[mcHAPPY]

Is it just me, or does Bayless remind you of a poorman's derrick rose. The way he gets to the basket and style of play is certainly like of Rose, except he's not on his level what so ever. Bayless puts up Rose like numbers whenever he starts, arent we a .500 team when he starts?

They are 3-6 when he starts. It is interesting to note a few things:

1) only 2 of those 9 games were against teams under .500 (CHA and DET),
2) Jose has not played against the Bulls 3 times this year, Bayless has started all 3,
3) the wins have come against DAL, CHI, and ORL,
4) the losses were:
113-106 L to CHI
100-98 L to MEM (remember Rudy Gay's shot? "No! Not that guy!")
111-91 L to CHI
110-93 L to CHI
97-91 L to CHA
123-116 L to DEN

[c.e.]

Ouch. Showed me LOL. thx for the stats.

[Joey]

Ah.



Yeah. All I'm really trying to say is that I saw no reason (other than showcasing Calderon) why Bayless shouldn't have had the opportunity to really show the team what he was as a player. All we saw (the fans, not the team) were glimpses as a result of too little playing time. That's frustrating, given what type of season this was. It would have been useful information.

Side note: Bayless was taken 11th in a draft where 7 players taken ahead of him might become, or already are, all-stars (Rose, Beasely, Mayo, Westbrook, Love, Gordon, Lopez). It doesn't mean anything, I just thought it was interesting (please no, "I suppose that means you think Joe Alexander is going to be an all-star then?").

So what, you DON'T think Joe Alexander will be an All-Star?! WTF man?! Jeff, you got some 'splainin to do!

[pesterm1]

[QUOTE=jeff_hostetler;75222]Ah.

Yeah. All I'm really trying to say is that I saw no reason (other than showcasing Calderon) why Bayless shouldn't have had the opportunity to really show the team what he was as a player. All we saw (the fans, not the team) were glimpses as a result of too little playing time. That's frustrating, given what type of season this was. It would have been useful information.QUOTE]

i said this in another thread already but i think the reason bayless didint start was for a few reasons.
1.calderons stock needed to be boosted for trading. - CHECK
2.calderon can facilitate a young team much better then bayless.( needed for guys like demar, amir, davis, etc. also bargs adjusting to his new role to improove and grow) - CHECK
3.bayless was on his 3rd team in just over 2 years, he said in an interview how hard it is to learn all the new plays and raptors basketball language just after he started to get finally remember most of new orleans stuff. - CHECK
4. bayless is still developing and he needed bench minutes to determine how he should be played and evaluate him on a smaller sample size. - Check

in the begining the jarret jack trade looked at par becase but now with jerryds starter numbers taking a big leap bayless is the better selection. the main reason i tihnk bayless is so effective as a starter is because he gets the foul calls he needs over longer minutes. whens hes off the bench the refs dont give him the same calls concisstently. i hope he keeps up this solid play!

alos to people who are saying he is to much of a sg rather then a pg. i think this is slightly true but possibly Colangelo is okay with that with the new pickup of SF Jjohnson( a sf that can dribble up the ball on fast breaks and has decent assist and handles) with a player that can bring the ball up like JJ ( will be even better as he developes) the raptors could do well with bayless at the point ( kinda plays like bibby IMO)