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The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

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  • interesting article by Bill Simmons about the lockout...
    LINK

    He talks about how the NBA lost 300 million this year and then complies a list of horrible contracts that also adds up to 300 million. The funny thing is that 8 of the almost 30 players on that list have worn a raptors jersey at some point in their career. Not saying this as a poke at toronto management because some of these guys are on contracts they signed w/ other teams, but thought it was funny...

    You know how I know this? Because the players made $2.1 billion dollars this year … and again the owners lost $300 million. Hold on, I have their $300 million right here: Vince Carter ($17.5m), Richard Hamilton ($12.5m), Baron Davis ($13m), Jose Calderon ($9m), Gilbert Arenas ($17.7m), Rashard Lewis ($19.6m), Michael Redd ($18.3m), Matt Carroll ($4.3m), Mike Dunleavy ($10.6m), Jason Kapono ($6.6m), Andrei Kirilenko ($17.8m), Marvin Williams ($7.2m), Jared Jeffries ($6.8m), Vlad Radmanovic ($6.8m), Hedo Turkoglu ($10.2m), Boris Diaw ($9m), Marcus Banks ($4.8m), Joel Pryzbilla ($7.4m), TJ Ford (8.5m), Darius Songalia ($4.8m), Andris Biedrins ($9m), Yao Ming ($17.7m), Sam Dalembert ($13.4m), Memo Okur ($9.9m), DeSagana Diop ($6.4m), Jermaine O'Neal ($5.7m), Eddy Curry ($11.2m), Dan Gadzuric ($7.2m), Troy Murphy ($11.9m). Boom! Everyone on that list ranges from "violently overpaid" to "brazenly stole money and hasn't been arrested yet."
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

    "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    • [delete]
      Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sat Jun 18, 2011, 10:32 PM.

      Comment


      • Let me see their liabilities. Let me see their loans.


        Funny how I see some struggling with their houses, cars, and lifestyle, while others do not get fooled by the cheese. I don't want to hear the violins from those driving German cars.


        Give me the worst franchise in the league debt free, and I will show you how much money this league can make, while paying my players 10% above norm. Some owners use their franchises like credit cards, they run them up, than they look at the players to make the concessions.


        You have to be a retard that stabs his eye with a fork every time you eat to NOT make money in the NBA.


        EDIT: Seriously guys, there is no bigger brand, if these guys are not making money with their revenues, it only tells me they are complete idiots. No one holds a gun to your head when you decide to buy the Range Rover. You have to take responsibility. The players negotiate the contracts fair and square. I don't want to hear the violin brigade from the privileged. Take your Darwin award and give the job to someone that can do it.
        Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sat Jun 18, 2011, 10:38 PM.

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        • Honestly guys,

          It's just embarrassing that these executives can be in this sort of position and not make money. It just means you are dumber than dumb. To cry about the players salaries is the absolute low. These guys are not even educated, they have dedicated their lives to the sport, its beyond retarded to act like they control the league.


          Sorry if I don't roll the way of the privileged scum bags that cry that their sky is falling.


          (Please GOD get the biggest low life of sport, STERN, out of this league... there is no bigger scum bag in a bag full of scum - please get this zombie out this league - PLEASE MAKE HIM A CRYPT where he can lie in peace)


          EDIT: BTW, Raptors Republic rocks because it is the real deal. Realgm will take you if you are 16 and think you know it all. Fuck you dagger, you fucking ruined the Raptor experience with your egotistical bullshit an entire forum goes down in flames due to your senile ineptitude. Go kiss some ass bitch.
          Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sun Jun 19, 2011, 05:15 AM.

          Comment


          • MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
            Honestly guys,

            It's just embarrassing that these executives can be in this sort of position and not make money. It just means you are dumber than dumb. To cry about the players salaries is the absolute low. These guys are not even educated, they have dedicated their lives to the sport, its beyond retarded to act like they control the league.


            Sorry if I don't roll the way of the privileged scum bags that cry that their sky is falling.


            (Please GOD get the biggest low life of sport, STERN, out of this league... there is no bigger scum bag in a bag full of scum - please get this zombie out this league - PLEASE MAKE HIM A CRYPT where he can lie in peace)
            I disagree. It seems that the motive for change is coming from the smaller market teams. The big markets are making piles of money and can afford to sign multiple max players.

            I'm not down with the millionaire versus billionaire fighting which is what this is really about - I could really care less about either.

            What I am interested in is making a league that is much more competitive and gives all teams a realistic chance to win.

            Comment


            • Owners backing off hard cap in exchange for big share of net earnings?

              Additionally, the league is slowly backing away from a hard cap. One NBA executive told HOOPSWORLD that owners realize that if they want a hard cap, it's going to cost a season. That's partially why the owners recently backed off their position of non-guaranteed contracts in negotiations with the players.

              Eventually a deal will be reached with the true focus for the league on distribution of Basketball Related Income (BRI). They want a bigger piece of the pie, which is currently at 57% going to the players off the gross.

              The owners want a bigger cut but they also want that off the net, which would dramatically reshape the economic picture - likely at the concession of a hard cap, salary rollbacks and the aforementioned non-guaranteed contracts.

              Regardless, with revenue sharing expected to increase the Lakers are one of the teams expected to bear a greater financial burden moving forward.

              "Either way, if they significantly reduce their player costs and make things more equitable for small market teams, that's going to impact teams with huge payrolls, isn't it,"
              Source: HoopsWorld.com

              How do the players know what the net is when the teams won't share any details?

              Comment


              • Today's meeting

                NBPA's Hunter, Fisher, Mason Paul said players will never accept hard cap.
                Source: Twitter / @tribjazz

                At end of labor meeting, still "big gaps" one official says between two sides. Meeting again on Friday. Some movement, civil meeting.
                Source: Twitter / @WojYahooNBA

                NBPA's Hunter: "We are a long, long way away from a deal."
                Source: Twitter / @tribjazz

                CBA talks end around 2:45 pm with no deal and yet another hard cap proposal from league. Union will respond in meeting on Friday....
                Source: Twitter / @alanhahn

                Comment


                • Adrian Wojnarowski:
                  Stern: NBA proposed a targeted $62 million cap. As far as league's best offer? "It's all out there." Wouldn't call it "final" though.
                  Gary Washburn:
                  Stern said owners have offered players a "flex cap" which allows teams to go over cap. A modified hard cap. He calls it "significant offer."
                  With $62M and a flex cap (likely a hell of lot fewer exceptions than current system) I would be happy. The players should be too.

                  I also read the players were flexible on a 50-50 split somewhere, and that the league is offering a min $2B salary level per year. Seems another glitch is whether the deal would be for 10yrs (owners) or 5yrs (players). I am for the 10yrs as well.

                  Comment


                  • Owners to show no mercy after Thursday:

                    The league wouldn’t reveal if the board officially authorized locking out the players once the clock strikes midnight Thursday, the end of the collective bargaining agreement that’s been in place since 2005, but it doesn’t matter. As commissioner David Stern has warned already, such a vote is a mere formality and can be conducted by any means at any time.
                    Holt’s committee will meet with the negotiating committee of the National Basketball Player’s Association on Thursday, but no last-minute breakthrough is expected.
                    According to NBA executives familiar with the league’s strategies, once the lockout is in place, the owners will push for a hard salary cap of $45 million, the elimination of guaranteed contracts and ask that the players swallow a 33 percent salary cut.

                    The concessions made in recent weeks, including the “flex cap” of $62 million and a guarantee of $2 billion in annual player payroll, will be off the table.
                    Source: blog.mysanantonio.com

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                    • I have no doubt the offer will get worse for players from this point forward. The players are beyond naive if they do not remember what happened to the NHLPA - especially considering it appears to be an NHL model the NBA owners seek.

                      Comment


                      • The NHL owners broke the NHLPA. They simply let them bleed money until they could not stand it anymore. I don't see such a strategy failing in the NBA. I'm sure NBA players have just as expensive tastes, if not more expensive tastes as they're typically paid more money than NHL players. On top of that I know most NBA owners are like most NHL owners in that their pro team is not their "empire". It's just something they do on the side. As such, they have many other revenue streams. I'm willing to go out on a limb and suggest most players don't have other income streams that can sustain their lifestyles over a long drought. FIBA isn't the answer for them... If FIBA would turn on the NBA and let those guys even go play over there.

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                        • Etan Thomas

                          http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/tho...ited-we-stand/


                          My son Malcolm is almost six years old and about two years ago he had a project in school where his assignment was to write a list of what he wanted for Christmas. As soon as he got home, he handed this list to me with a big smile on his face. This list included a helicopter, a rocket ship, his very own Aang (like in Avatar: The Last Airbender) and a horse. Although I appreciated his imagination, I explained to him that those things were simply unrealistic, and when he is ready to make a real list, then we can talk.

                          In a similar manner, the NBA presented the Players Association with a proposal that appeared to be more like a Christmas List to Santa Claus than the start of an actual negotiation. The NBA expressed desires of a new imposed hard cap, removal of all guaranteed contracts, drastic economic concessions and a guaranteed profit for each team. They wanted to ensure that no matter what poor business decisions individual teams make (economic, personnel, etcetera) they all can expect guaranteed profits.

                          Greed should not be the determining factor that takes an entire season, or possibly more, away from the fans. They deserve better than that.

                          Let me be clear: The players want to get this resolved, and have made every effort to compromise, even in the face of an unrealistic wish list.

                          The Players Association and the NBA have continued to talk in an attempt to reach some common ground, but our efforts have been thus far unsuccessful. While I appreciate the NBA taking the time to meet with the Players Association repeatedly and give, as David Stern called it, “virtually the best shot we think we have to avoid a work stoppage,” I have to respectfully take issue with the their approach.

                          Last Tuesday, David Stern felt it appropriate to reveal detailed information about the league’s salary cap proposal and as a result I feel the need to put it all in perspective just so everyone has a clear understanding of what is going on without the Fox News-type spin.

                          In an effort to salvage the season, the NBPA presented the NBA with a proposal to address some of their needs. We tried to directly address the economic woes that the league has reported by coming to the very difficult decision of a massive financial giveback. This would consist of the players relinquishing $500 million in salary over five years by reducing our share of guaranteed revenues from 57 percent to 54.3 percent.

                          Keep in mind that this offer is coming on the heels of a historic season where league-wide revenue soared to an all-time high $4.3 billion, where the NBA delivered a record television audience for its network partners and brought higher than anticipated gate revenue.

                          A season where the league drew 21.3 million fans and the fifth-highest attendance in NBA history. Knowing these accomplishments and hearing the NBA’s unreasonable wish list, the Players Association still attempted to create a resolution by making a sizable economic concession to offset the NBA’s claim of financial losses. Surprisingly, our offer was characterized by commissioner David Stern simply as modest. They wanted more.

                          Knowing a hard cap was one of the many items on the NBA’s wish list that was vehemently rejected by the Players Association, they came up with a new idea. The NBA said that they would back off their desire for non-guaranteed contracts, but wanted to introduce a new system.

                          According to an article by the Associated Press, David Stern said the league had proposed a “flex cap” in which teams would target a uniform dollar amount to spend, but would still be permitted to exceed it up to an unspecified level.

                          According to Stern, teams would be targeted to spend approximately $62 million, with the option to spend above through certain exceptions before reaching a limit they could not exceed.

                          There is a saying that you can pour syrup on anything but that doesn’t make it pancakes.

                          Changing the language in how a hard cap is defined does not change it from in fact being a hard cap. The term “flex cap” may sound nice, but at the end of the day it’s still a hard cap.

                          The NBA’s “concession” of backing off their desire for non-guaranteed contracts, but implementing a hard cap system is fool’s gold. It absolutely does us no good. There would still be roll backs. Each contract would have to conform to a hard cap system, meaning they could be reduced by as much as a third depending on the actual hard number agreed upon. It would cut out the middle class completely. Two guys may be able to obtain an actual contract while it will be difficult for the rest of the team to get guaranteed deals, etcetera, etcetera.

                          This cannot be a starting point for us. They have in essence tried to insult our intelligence by making us think that something they have “given us” is a slam dunk when in reality its very far from progress. Again, it’s fool’s gold. Not to mention the fact that we already have guaranteed contracts as well as a soft cap system. They have put two non-starters for us on the table and tried to begin negotiating from that standpoint.

                          We might as well had told them that we’re going to back off our desire of having no salary cap (which has proven to work in baseball no matter what they say) and wait for their “response” and see what they were willing to give back to us in exchange for the gracious concession we just made for them. They are trying to bamboozle us and really it’s insulting. It was a nice try but we’re a lot smarter than they give us credit for.

                          Against our better judgement, and in an effort to save the next NBA season, which is in danger of being completely lost, we began negotiating from their fictional and ridiculous proposal of non-guarantees, hard cap, shorter years, drastic giveback, adjustment of BRI and guaranteed profits. We attempted to address some of their concerns without drastically dismantling our entire system. A more sensible approach would have been for the NBA to begin negotiations with the system we currently have and begin making additions, adjustments, etcetera, that work in the best interest of both parties.

                          We entertained their fantasy and they not only discounted and rejected our efforts, but they spit at our concessions and await for us to make another offer to them?

                          To quote Billy Hunter, ”we’ve had guaranteed contracts for 40 years, so it’s almost like somebody walks into your house and they take something that belongs to you, and then they want to sell it back. And you say, ‘It was mine from the get-go, so why should I pay for it? And I didn’t authorize you to take it, and I never said it was available for you to take or use or abuse.”

                          It is for this reason that the players collectively reject their proposal and are prepared for a lockout for whatever duration it takes in order to reach a deal that is fair. The players can’t take on the burden of saving teams from themselves. If NBA teams have made bad decisions that were detrimental to their overall profit, success and productivity, then those are issues to be taken up with GMs, presidents and the rest of the powers that be. It is up to each NBA CEO to conduct his business in a way that will be advantageous to him and his franchise as a whole.

                          But make no mistake, to play in the NBA is a blessing. We all appreciate and value this opportunity and have the utmost respect for the game.

                          Which is why we feel an obligation to avoid turning our backs on the future generations as well as the younger players in this league. We know our history. We are fully aware of the fact that the players before us laid a foundation that we have a responsibility to cherish and preserve. Players like Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Pete Maravich, Bob Lanier, Nate Archibald, Moses Malone, Magic Johnson, Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, Larry Bird, all the former players who were prepared to boycott the 1964 All-Star Game in an effort to be recognized as a union and negotiate their rights, such as Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor, Lenny Wilkens, Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Bob Pettit, Walt Bellamy, Tom Heinsohn… They all paved the way and fought for this league to reach the level it is now, and we respect that. We cannot take all of their hard work and throw it down the drain.

                          As NBPA president Derek Fisher said in Friday’s meeting where 50 players from around the league collectively stood with our “Stand” shirts on in front of David Stern and the CEOs of the NBA, “we will not accept a bad deal that is not fair to our players. We’d love to avoid a lockout, but we are unified in the sense of not being afraid if that’s what we’re faced with.”

                          Read more: http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/tho...#ixzz1QgnVEG65

                          From reading this, the players do not get it in my opinion.

                          Comment


                          • Owners willing to sacrifice the whole season...

                            Former deputy commissioner Russ Granik, lead negotiator in the past four collective bargaining agreements, said the view of management has changed dramatically since the last labor deal in 2005.

                            "The sense I'm getting is that it's much like it was in 1998-99, that owners seem to be wedded to getting at least a large measure of changes they're asking for, and my feeling is they would be prepared to lose a season if necessary," Granik said in the podcast with ESPN's Ryen Russillo.
                            Source: Sun-Sentinel.com

                            Ugh... Good thing I'm a huge football fan.

                            Comment


                            • What about the Fans in all CBA Discussions?

                              I've been reading a lot of the articles published that continue to pay special attention to the sides of the owners and players. But what about the fans? without our money going into the purchase of tickets, merchandise etc. both the owners/players would be hard pressed to turn a profit. There are rarely articles which present the fan's point of view, what this means for fans, and more importantly what the fans want. While the players and owners encompass large groups of interested parties, I feel if one side decided to make this a problem for the fans, or even tried to start a fan campaign we would see a different discussion take place altogether. Fans have a huge voice, and I feel the owners/players aren't respecting the ability of the fan.

                              What do you think? do fans ultimately have a voice in these discussions or are we the audience in this as well?

                              Also, my apologies I've posted this under "Everything Raptors" when it probably belongs in the "NBA" section

                              Comment


                              • ezz_bee wrote: View Post
                                interesting article by Bill Simmons about the lockout...
                                LINK

                                He talks about how the NBA lost 300 million this year and then complies a list of horrible contracts that also adds up to 300 million. The funny thing is that 8 of the almost 30 players on that list have worn a raptors jersey at some point in their career. Not saying this as a poke at toronto management because some of these guys are on contracts they signed w/ other teams, but thought it was funny...
                                Interesting, but I think you're thinking of Chris Jefferies, not Jared Jeffries. Jared was drafted by Washington and is played for Houston last year. Chris played briefly for Toronto but isn't in the NBA, anymore.
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