Chad Ford Mock Draft 4.0: Raptors select Jan Vesely

[Apollo]

...Ugh...

Good timing for Jan Vesely to have big night (18 pts/5 rebs) as Partizan wins title: @DraftExpress writes Raps, Jazz, and Wiz in attendance.

Soure: Twitter / @brewhoop

I'm happy for the guy and all but I really hope this didn't flip things on Colangelo's list.

[Tim W.]

You could say that, if you wanted to be selective. You could also say that when we acquired Marion we lost 8 of our 11 games. A much higher percentage than 9/13. This was a piece that everyone agreed that we needed, and Jay did not know how to use. He wasn't a redundent piece, he did not duplicate anything, it was just Jay's inability to fit him into the team.

You can say such trades require a season and a preseason, but then why would teams make them before a playoff push? (paying through the nose like we did renting Marion) I have seen plenty of such juicy trades work out well for teams. In Triano's case it was a disaster (and it was exactly the right piece at the RIGHT TIME!).


So lets look at the 9/13. If we stretch the margins we can include two losses and make it 9/15. Lets take them out and lets make the margins from WIN to WIN (so back to your 9/13). Who did we beat?

LA Clippers 19/63
Milwaukee 34/48
Oklahoma 23/59
Chicago (2) 41/41
Orlando 59/23
Knicks 32/50
Philadelphia 41/41
Washington 19/63

(only ONE team above 500. Plenty of teams fighting for the lottery)


Who did we loose to?

Knicks 32/50
Atlanta 47/35
Indiana 36/46
Washington 19/63

(3 teams we should have beaten if we were really a PO team)



We had a very easy schedule at the end of the season. Sam Mitchell had one of the hardest at 7-8, with what many still consider an inferior roster.


So we get Marion.
===========

First game, Kapono plays 25 minutes, we lose.
2nd game, Kapono plays 30 minutes, we lose.

Jay still does not get it.... wonders why our defence is not improving. Kapono is playing SG, we are getting lit up with 3's from all over. Scouting report says you can exploit the raptors from the perimeter. Jay see's nothing... can't understand why teams are killing us with the 3 ball, night after night.


This is why Jay was a HORRIBLE NBA coach. A great CIAU and International coach, but just no understanding of defence at the NBA level and no ability to adjust.



I am so happy that Jay got released (canned). You guys have no idea. I wanted Bryan gone for hiring this flake. I now understand that I can live with Bryan, but I could never live with Jay. Stupid is what stupid does.




EDIT: I should not call him a bad coach, posted this message a bit too early due to my insomnia, so its a little groggy in nature. I imagine he is an incredible teacher of the game, but a horrible tactician when you add both defence and offence to the equation. I think he might make an amazing offensive coordinator, and I think he is great person and role model. I certainly would buy him a beer if I bumped into him. As for being a head coach in this league, there is no shame in not making the cut. 30 positions only, maybe 15 of them are manned by coaches that actually have the aptitude to coach at this level, the rest are just like Jay, only a season or two away from getting the hook and never being back.

Triano was a "horrible" coach? I've got to disagree completely. I agree he was slow in figuring how to work Marion in, but he eventually did and pretty well. And the rest of the time he was head coach the Raptors did about as well as expected. If he was a horrible coach the Raptors would not have been vying for a playoff berth at the end of 2009. And they wouldn't have won even 22 games this season. Not with the lack of talent the Raptors had. I'm not going to argue if you want to say he was a mediocre coach or even simply not a good one. But a horrible one? I've seen a few horrible coaches that had disastrous results, and Triano wouldn't have lasted 2.5 years if he was a horrible coach.

[Tim W.]

just like if he'd nailed every shot i wouldn't be making him out to be the best shooter in the history of the world, i don't draw any conclusions about the fact he missed more than he made in this particular drill. i mean, he didn't dunk during the drill either, but i'm not questioning his hops.

he's got good form, and that, IMO, is all that really matters (at this stage). he'll have lots of time to iron out the wrinkles & develop consistency from mid-range & beyond...it's not as though he'd be asked to be anything other than the 3rd or 4th offensive option when on the floor for the first season or two anyway.

You're right. I probably overreacted a little after watching the clip, but I don't think his form was all that good. And there was little touch. I do think he needs to be able to hit the jumper, though, otherwise he's just another Julian Wright, but without the passing skills.

[Raptorsss]

I've been a supporter of Jay in the past, but I've come around and finally figured out his problem. He's a great basketball mind, and was probably the coach most responsible for making Bosh such a good shooter.

But, when it comes to managing players, setting roles and getting the players to by into his system he's completely lost. His hands may have been tied, this past year, being forced to play players he'd rather sit in the name of development, but it doesn't make-up for the fact that the line-ups and roles were way too fluid throughout the season.

Smitch may have been too intense at times, but he at least new how to manage players.

[Papa Burgundy]

If we are the worst defensive team in the league 2 years in a row, then we should trade down and get Bismack, Who cares about offense when you can probably average 3 blocks a game.

I really like the idea of adding Bismack ... exactly, who cares if he can't score - we have scorers ... we need rim defence.

[keefec]

I really like the idea of adding Bismack ... exactly, who cares if he can't score - we have scorers ... we need rim defence.

Arguable, I think Ed is gonna be our guy for low post defense..

[Papa Burgundy]

Arguable, I think Ed is gonna be our guy for low post defense..

Biyombo's 7'7 wingspan makes me think he can play Centre ... if we keep Bargnani, i'm not sure Ed can play Centre - unless he beefs up quite a bit.

[Tim W.]

I've been a supporter of Jay in the past, but I've come around and finally figured out his problem. He's a great basketball mind, and was probably the coach most responsible for making Bosh such a good shooter.

But, when it comes to managing players, setting roles and getting the players to by into his system he's completely lost. His hands may have been tied, this past year, being forced to play players he'd rather sit in the name of development, but it doesn't make-up for the fact that the line-ups and roles were way too fluid throughout the season.

Smitch may have been too intense at times, but he at least new how to manage players.

I think Triano's biggest fault is that he treats his player's like adults, and gives them the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't do well with players that need extra motivation, and unfortunately he's been given a lot of those in his time as head coach.

[Tank]

Home crowd going crazy for Vesely lol

[MyMomLovesMe]

Triano was a "horrible" coach? I've got to disagree completely. I agree he was slow in figuring how to work Marion in, but he eventually did and pretty well. And the rest of the time he was head coach the Raptors did about as well as expected. If he was a horrible coach the Raptors would not have been vying for a playoff berth at the end of 2009. And they wouldn't have won even 22 games this season. Not with the lack of talent the Raptors had. I'm not going to argue if you want to say he was a mediocre coach or even simply not a good one. But a horrible one? I've seen a few horrible coaches that had disastrous results, and Triano wouldn't have lasted 2.5 years if he was a horrible coach.

Well sir, we are going to have to disagree.

He was totally inept, and history will prove me to be correct. I have not even seen or heard of a worse coach, but I focus on the Raptors, and Triano was hands down the worst I have seen.

I tried to be nice in my edit, because I am posting anonymously and talking about another man who is not, but the truth is I think he was "retarded" when compared to other coaches. You can give him the same roster That Sam had with Garbajosa and he would have missed the playoffs. Totally inept as NBA head coach.


I have never seen anyone more out of his league than Triano... so there that is how I really think. So happy he got canned, I seriously wanted to can Bryan for hiring him.

(I will say it now. He will never get a HC gig again, he stunk up the joint. We lost Bosh because he did not know how to coach.)


EDIT: With Triano, you cant even make the perfect trade in the middle of the season, because he is too dumb to integrate. So a tool of the GM is gone completely. Also you can't be so selective about the end of the season, and ignore the 8/11 losses that followed when we needed to buck up. The end of the season we had one of the easiest schedules of the year. Teams were trying to lose against us to get better draft position.

EDIT2: The 22 wins is not a feather in his hat at all. Bryan thought this roster could compete, I agree it was a far stretch, but no one thought we would be bottom 3 of the league. Go back to RR and tell me that posters thought we would be the whipping boys.

I think a mediocre coach would have gotten +5 wins with this roster.

[pesterm1]

You're right. I probably overreacted a little after watching the clip, but I don't think his form was all that good. And there was little touch. I do think he needs to be able to hit the jumper, though, otherwise he's just another Julian Wright, but without the passing skills.

i agree, i was higher on leonard before that vid. his form isnt all that great yet. his feet look ackward when he shots.

[Tim W.]

Well sir, we are going to have to disagree.

He was totally inept, and history will prove me to be correct. I have not even seen or heard of a worse coach, but I focus on the Raptors, and Triano was hands down the worst I have seen.

I tried to be nice in my edit, because I am posting anonymously and talking about another man who is not, but the truth is I think he was "retarded" when compared to other coaches. You can give him the same roster That Sam had with Garbajosa and he would have missed the playoffs. Totally inept as NBA head coach.


I have never seen anyone more out of his league than Triano... so there that is how I really think. So happy he got canned, I seriously wanted to can Bryan for hiring him.

(I will say it now. He will never get a HC gig again, he stunk up the joint. We lost Bosh because he did not know how to coach.)


EDIT: With Triano, you cant even make the perfect trade in the middle of the season, because he is too dumb to integrate. So a tool of the GM is gone completely. Also you can't be so selective about the end of the season, and ignore the 8/11 losses that followed when we needed to buck up. The end of the season we had one of the easiest schedules of the year. Teams were trying to lose against us to get better draft position.

EDIT2: The 22 wins is not a feather in his hat at all. Bryan thought this roster could compete, I agree it was a far stretch, but no one thought we would be bottom 3 of the league. Go back to RR and tell me that posters thought we would be the whipping boys.

I think a mediocre coach would have gotten +5 wins with this roster.

I really have no idea how history is going to prove you right. We do obviously disagree.

I don't think him not getting a head coaching gig says anything definitively. Lots of decent coaches have never got a head coaching gig in the NBA. It's not like those positions grow on trees. Sam Mitchell wasn't a horrible head coach, but he took years before he even got an assistant gig and he probably won't get another head coaching gig, either.

One reason I don't think Triano is going to get another head coaching gig is because I don't see him leaving the Raptor organization. Like him or not, he's got a very smart basketball mind and is a valuable asset to the organization.

A horrible coach would have vastly underachieved every season, which Triano did not. He simply achieved to the talent he was given. A horrible coach can't take a deeply flawed team to 39 wins. And I really don't see how this past season's team is much better than their record. I think it's a case of Raptor fans continually overestimating how good the team is. There were some fans talking about playoffs, which astounded me. I really think objectivity is rare among Raptor fans.

Also, I don't think Marion was the perfect addition. I thought he was a good one, but he joined a team with absolutely no depth, and no ability to create their own shot, something he couldn't do. And the Raptors didn't have the type of roster that could play the type of game Marion flourished in.

Besides, if you're going to bash a coach for not being able to take advantage of trading for Marion, why stop at Triano. Pat Riley did absolutely NOTHING when he traded for Marion. His team went 3-12 after trading for Marion.

There simply is no evidence that Triano was a horrible coach. He did an adequate to decent job, in my opinion. I wouldn't argue if you said he did a below average job. But not a horrible job. A coach doing a horrible job rarely lasts 6 months. Maybe a year if he's got connections.

[pesterm1]

Home crowd going crazy for Vesely lol

vesley seems like anti bargnani right now.... tons of passion for the game, very expressive player, extremely atheletic and takes it to the rim. i wouldnt doubt if we end up taking vesley and bismack with our second pick ( if we aquire one).
both these players have been paying in a mens league and are definetly ahead of alot of the college players. Vesley and bismack are long and freakishly athletic players too which is the build BC has been going with lately.

[MyMomLovesMe]

I really have no idea how history is going to prove you right. We do obviously disagree.

I don't think him not getting a head coaching gig says anything definitively. Lots of decent coaches have never got a head coaching gig in the NBA. It's not like those positions grow on trees. Sam Mitchell wasn't a horrible head coach, but he took years before he even got an assistant gig and he probably won't get another head coaching gig, either.

One reason I don't think Triano is going to get another head coaching gig is because I don't see him leaving the Raptor organization. Like him or not, he's got a very smart basketball mind and is a valuable asset to the organization.

A horrible coach would have vastly underachieved every season, which Triano did not. He simply achieved to the talent he was given. A horrible coach can't take a deeply flawed team to 39 wins. And I really don't see how this past season's team is much better than their record. I think it's a case of Raptor fans continually overestimating how good the team is. There were some fans talking about playoffs, which astounded me. I really think objectivity is rare among Raptor fans.

Also, I don't think Marion was the perfect addition. I thought he was a good one, but he joined a team with absolutely no depth, and no ability to create their own shot, something he couldn't do. And the Raptors didn't have the type of roster that could play the type of game Marion flourished in.

Besides, if you're going to bash a coach for not being able to take advantage of trading for Marion, why stop at Triano. Pat Riley did absolutely NOTHING when he traded for Marion. His team went 3-12 after trading for Marion.

There simply is no evidence that Triano was a horrible coach. He did an adequate to decent job, in my opinion. I wouldn't argue if you said he did a below average job. But not a horrible job. A coach doing a horrible job rarely lasts 6 months. Maybe a year if he's got connections.

Tim I think you and a lot of fans have good basketball minds, but I don't think that we would make good HC's. You can live, eat and breathe the game, like Rob Bobcock but you still can be ill cut out for the decisions that this league can hoist on its actors.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are some nerds that will make Pops blush about his basketball know how. There are subtleties to this game that are very hard to master. You can have a coach with and IQ of 180 and 30 years experience, out coached by former player in his rookie season. These things happen, and the subtleties and our interpretations of them are very important.


The reason I felt Triano was a bad coach, was because I was seeing adjustments that he was failing to grasp. Me at home with my mug of beer. (Kept pulling hair, SOB, has made me more like through my dislike.) I don't need to read Dough Smith, or hear Bryan talk about Jay, nor do I need to hear a TSN special about Jay being Terry Fox's hero to say he was a bad coach (IMO).


Conversely, I though Sam was a great coach (so I am biased). I honestly thought he would be one of the greatest in the league one day. I liked his demeanour, maybe I was the only one, but he was exactly the sort of coach that got the most out of a guy like me when I was testing my motility against others.


So I think its largely preference. Marion is not the only point of contention for me, its many many factors. I think your point about Riley and Miami is a sound one, and I have to say well played. At the same time I have been butting my head against Triano's whole approach to his players and his smooch'ery to his GM. I was appealed that he did not shake Bosh's hand. I hate Bosh with the best of them, I think I can give Arse a run for his money in that department.

I would have shaken that hand with a smile, its part of showing that YOU are in control. What Jay did was petty and not something I would expect from a leader. I have seen this same flaw of his expressed over and over on a much smaller scale, with how he deals with his players and how two faced he can be between the media and his roster.


I liked that Sam took the heat from the media. Sam put himself out there, stood in the way of Andrea hate, took a lot of the fault for Andrea not being the player we expected. It cost him his job, but he made himself the lightning rod the club needed. Andrea was not under pressure, Sam was.


Jay seems like a guy that will hang you out to dry. Talk to you one way, talk to his media friends another and than talk to management yet another way. A "Yes" man that makes sure everyone likes him. I think there is something suspicious about people that want everyone to like them. It's an impossible goal without compromising yourself.


I don't have very much respect for him, and I tried to hold the levy up, in terms of my distaste for his tenure... but I would be just fooling myself and not being honest about how I really feel about a Triano coached team.

[Tim W.]

Tim I think you and a lot of fans have good basketball minds, but I don't think that we would make good HC's. You can live, eat and breathe the game, like Rob Bobcock but you still can be ill cut out for the decisions that this league can hoist on its actors.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are some nerds that will make Pops blush about his basketball know how. There are subtleties to this game that are very hard to master. You can have a coach with and IQ of 180 and 30 years experience, out coached by former player in his rookie season. These things happen, and the subtleties and our interpretations of them are very important.


The reason I felt Triano was a bad coach, was because I was seeing adjustments that he was failing to grasp. Me at home with my mug of beer. (Kept pulling hair, SOB, has made me more like through my dislike.) I don't need to read Dough Smith, or hear Bryan talk about Jay, nor do I need to hear a TSN special about Jay being Terry Fox's hero to say he was a bad coach (IMO).


Conversely, I though Sam was a great coach (so I am biased). I honestly thought he would be one of the greatest in the league one day. I liked his demeanour, maybe I was the only one, but he was exactly the sort of coach that got the most out of a guy like me when I was testing my motility against others.


So I think its largely preference. Marion is not the only point of contention for me, its many many factors. I think your point about Riley and Miami is a sound one, and I have to say well played. At the same time I have been butting my head against Triano's whole approach to his players and his smooch'ery to his GM. I was appealed that he did not shake Bosh's hand. I hate Bosh with the best of them, I think I can give Arse a run for his money in that department.

I would have shaken that hand with a smile, its part of showing that YOU are in control. What Jay did was petty and not something I would expect from a leader. I have seen this same flaw of his expressed over and over on a much smaller scale, with how he deals with his players and how two faced he can be between the media and his roster.


I liked that Sam took the heat from the media. Sam put himself out there, stood in the way of Andrea hate, took a lot of the fault for Andrea not being the player we expected. It cost him his job, but he made himself the lightning rod the club needed. Andrea was not under pressure, Sam was.


Jay seems like a guy that will hang you out to dry. Talk to you one way, talk to his media friends another and than talk to management yet another way. A "Yes" man that makes sure everyone likes him. I think there is something suspicious about people that want everyone to like them. It's an impossible goal without compromising yourself.


I don't have very much respect for him, and I tried to hold the levy up, in terms of my distaste for his tenure... but I would be just fooling myself and not being honest about how I really feel about a Triano coached team.

I think judging an NBA coach is like judging an iceberg by what you see above the water. Most of what NBA coaches do we simply never see. All we see is how the players responded to it and most of the times, that says more about the player than it does about the coach. Sure, there are those few coaches who can get more out of players, but those are the exception. Each coach has his strengths and weaknesses. How he performs depends a whole lot on whether he's got the right type of player around him and the right type of assistant coaches. Would Phil Jackson been nearly as successful without Tex Winter? Or Michael Jordan/Shaq/Kobe? Would Greg Popovich been as successful without RC Buford surrounding him with exactly the type of players he needed to succeed?

One of the hardest things about coaching is that EVERYONE has an opinion on how your doing. Unfortunately 99.999999999% of the people watching simply don't understand enough to form a valid opinion. I certainly didn't agree with a lot of what Triano did, but it doesn't mean it was wrong. Most of what he did I had no idea the reasoning behind it, so it's hard to judge. And most fans are incredibly short sighted.

For example, he got a lot of flack for playing Calderon and Jack together a lot the season Turkoglu was on the team. Most felt it obviously wasn't working, so why continue to do it? Well, My feeling is that he wasn't thinking it would help immediately but in the long run. If he could get Jack and Calderon to play together well, it would help down the road, especially in the playoffs. Those two were the best guards on the team and having two guys who could run the offense would have been incredibly dangerous.

As for how they dealt with the media, I couldn't care less. I've found one of the least interesting things in basketball to be interview with coaches, players and GMs. 99% of the time it means absolutely nothing.

You say Mitchell protected his players and that Triano hung them out to dry. I do find it interesting because until the last six months, one of the main criticisms I heard about Triano is that he would never criticize his players publicly.

As for no shaking Bosh's hand, I really don't have much of an opinion. It seemed petty, but neither one of us knows what went on in private, so it's hard to say whether either of us would have done the same. Again, it's hard to judge without understanding the whole story, which we probably won't ever do.