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2012 Draft Thursday, June 28th: Raptors select Terence Ross

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  • Apollo wrote: View Post
    I really hate the idea of trading Ed Davis. Guys like that don't grow on trees. If they're ever going to win anything, and do it without a Superstar(no one to be seen right now) then they're going to need guys like him badly. He seems like the perfect guy for Dwayne Casey's system and I think he's going to be a Joakim Noah type player in terms of on court impact and production. The jury is out on if he's got a flare for leadership. I was a little concerned when Casey didn't mention Ed when he took the job. He gave props to all the other core guys but him and it seemed really strange because Ed Davis is probably the best fit out of anyone on the team for a Dwayne Casey defensive system.
    I think Anthony Davis will be a superstar. It is early and the odds do not favour the thought but he is a special and rare breed of player. If he reaches his potential, I think he is easily a top 10 player in the league.

    Hopefully I'm not making it sound like I want ED gone.... far from it. While ED is not a superstar, as someone has said through the comments, he is probably a borderline all-star. If there is no possibility to get a possible star at PF, you keep ED and you are happy about it.

    Comment


    • I think Ed would be a great complimentary piece to a championship team as well.. but I think Ed has more potential then Amir. Even though I love Amir, I'd prefer Ed over Amir in the long term.

      If we do end up drafting Anthony Davis, and he can only play PF, then I say we trade Amir (and Bargs of course), and make Ed the first big off the bench.

      We then go after someone like Gay as our SF for the future.

      A big rotation of Val, Anthony, Ed and Alibi is not so bad - pretty scary defensively.

      I think Amir can fetch more than Ed in a trade as well.

      Comment


      • What about the second round pick?

        Hopefully the season is played this year and the roster stays somewhat in tact as constructed. One could make the argument it is tanking but I prefer to look at it as developing and assessing the talent currently on the roster. The second round pick of course is based straight on record. If the Raptors had their pick last year they would have had pick #33 (sent to Detroit as part of Delfino trade). If freshmen/one and dones are still permitted in the draft, there will potentially be good players slipping in to the second round. Three players who I would keep my eye on would be:

        Doron Lamb
        John Jenkins
        Terrence Ross

        All three are shooting guards who can stroke it from deep - a need for Toronto.

        Obviously it is early in the year and they could definitely be first round picks or may not even declare in time. I guess my point is first round talent always slips to the 2nd round - especially early second round - and with the Raptors needing shooters, I'll be watching those three.

        Comment


        • Tim W. wrote: View Post
          You're trying to select a house based on the furniture you already have. That's not the best way to do it. However much I like many of the players the Raptors already have, they are all complimentary pieces (Valanciunas may or may not be, but we don't know at this point). The Raptors need to pick whoever has the best chance to be their franchise player and then adjust their roster to him.
          Actually, no I'm not. Using your analogy, I'm trying to buy more furniture based on the furniture I already own.
          Makes perfect sense if you ask me.

          Tim W. wrote:
          And I'm not suggesting the only way the Raptors won't be a 22 win team is by drafting Davis. I'm suggesting that when you're one of the worst teams in the league, the last thing you should do worry about who's already on your team when you draft. In last year's draft, Cleveland picked Tristan Thompson over Valanciunas despite most feeling that Valanciunas was the better player because Thompson filled a more immediate need. If Valanciunas turns out to be better than Thompson, ten years from now, no one is going to remember that Thompson filled a more immediate need, but that Cleveland missed out on the better player. Hell, look at Ed Davis. The main reason Davis fell to 13 was because teams drafting ahead of the Raptors needed other positions more than PF. And now Davis is in the conversation for the top 5 players from his draft. If they had the chance to draft over, I'm guessing some of those teams would pick differently.
          First off, Cleveland did NOT draft Thompson because they needed a Power Forward...
          The Cavs surprised many when they picked Tristan Thompson in the NBA Draft this summer, but to them, Thompson was an absolute no-brainer. From the Plain Dealer: “Now 6-8 and 20 years old, Thompson spent a year at Texas as a defensive force, was named Big 12 Freshman of the Year, and got enough attention that Cavaliers GM Chris Grant claims he’s been tracking the long power forward since he was in high school. The fact that he was the fourth pick wouldn’t have been a surprise if you saw what the Cavaliers’ scouting team did: The team’s scouts salivated over Thompson’s 7-2 wingspan, his 38.5-inch vertical leap and his 2.4 blocks per game. (Though not so much over his 49 percent free-throw shooting.) ‘We just love what he’s about and how he would fit into our organization,’ Grant said when introducing Thompson and No. 1 pick Kyrie Irving. ‘This was a very easy pick,’ Grant said. It was such an easy pick that Grant promptly made room on the squad for Thompson to grow and develop when he traded J.J. Hickson to Sacramento on Thursday. The glut of power forwards is now somewhat smaller, and Thompson’s path to a starting position is more direct.” Source

          Secondly, once again, in my opinion, not only is Harrison Barnes a can't-miss prospect, guaranteed to upgrade your club, he is also ready to contribute and is NBA ready, today. I'm not sure Anthony Davis is.

          Tim W. wrote:
          As for WHERE the Raptors pick, obviously no one knows. I'm just saying who I like just as you've been hyping Barnes. And I actually think the Raptors have a pretty good chance at picking first. They won 22 games last year and probably will trot out a similar roster this time. There's no reason to think the results will be much different.
          I disagree with this. I think allowing this core group of players to grow together, would show incremental success' solely based on growth and development.

          Comment


          • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
            Actually, no I'm not. Using your analogy, I'm trying to buy more furniture based on the furniture I already own.
            Makes perfect sense if you ask me.



            First off, Cleveland did NOT draft Thompson because they needed a Power Forward...
            [/B]
            Secondly, once again, in my opinion, not only is Harrison Barnes a can't-miss prospect, guaranteed to upgrade your club, he is also ready to contribute and is NBA ready, today. I'm not sure Anthony Davis is.



            I disagree with this. I think allowing this core group of players to grow together, would show incremental success' solely based on growth and development.
            Clearly we're dealing with opinions here so there is no right or wrong. With that said, I would not say Barnes is a can't miss prospect in terms of a future all-star or superstar (his first college year is a good example why) but I do most definitely agree he is NBA ready in terms of physical development and, if he performs to ability, in terms of talent.

            Personally, I'm not too concerned about 1-2 years down the line. Where will Barnes be in 4 years and where will Anthony Davis be in 4 years? If I am basing my decision on this, at this point in time, I go with Anthony Davis - hands down.

            Comment


            • planetmars wrote: View Post
              I think Ed would be a great complimentary piece to a championship team as well.. but I think Ed has more potential then Amir. Even though I love Amir, I'd prefer Ed over Amir in the long term.

              If we do end up drafting Anthony Davis, and he can only play PF, then I say we trade Amir (and Bargs of course), and make Ed the first big off the bench.

              We then go after someone like Gay as our SF for the future.

              A big rotation of Val, Anthony, Ed and Alibi is not so bad - pretty scary defensively.

              I think Amir can fetch more than Ed in a trade as well.
              I don't think there's anyone who doesn't think Ed has more potential than Amir, but the reasoning behind trading Ed instead of Amir is that Amir would be much more amenable to coming off the bench than Ed. He's also signed for longer than Ed. I think it would be incredibly difficult to retain Ed if he were relegated to a bench role.

              As for their trade value, I'm not sure how Amir has more. Ed is younger and has more potential. You said it yourself.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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              • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                I like Miller less after seeing that. I've seen clips of him and think he's certainly got talent, but his attitude and the whole "It's easy" thing was a HUGE turnoff. I don't mind the stare-down after the dunk or great play in certain circumstances (I've done it myself), but after a while you just start looking like a punk. That's one thing I like about DeRozan. He just shuts up and plays.
                i like his attitude he's got the confidence we need. Every team needs at least one of these kind of guys. I wouldn't mind at all if we drafted him

                Comment


                • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                  Actually, no I'm not. Using your analogy, I'm trying to buy more furniture based on the furniture I already own.
                  Makes perfect sense if you ask me.
                  That depends on what you think you're drafting. If you think you're drafting another complimentary piece, then you're right. I don't see Anthony as another complimentary piece. I see him as a franchise player. In the NBA, you tend to go only as far as your franchise player can take you, hence the house analogy. Your franchise player is the house and the other players are the furniture. They're very important, but it's the house that you need to build around and that's going to determine your worth.

                  When Milwaukee had the #1 pick in 2005, they picked Andrew Bogut, who was a very good player, over Chris Paul because they already had TJ Ford and Mo Williams (as well as the fact that Bogut was a center). To me, Paul was, hands down, the best player in that draft and should have gone first. I'm betting, even if Bogut hadn't had injuries, Milwaukee would have rather have drafted Paul, who's a franchise player, instead of Bogut, who's not.

                  joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                  uFirst off, Cleveland did NOT draft Thompson because they needed a Power Forward...
                  [/B]
                  Secondly, once again, in my opinion, not only is Harrison Barnes a can't-miss prospect, guaranteed to upgrade your club, he is also ready to contribute and is NBA ready, today. I'm not sure Anthony Davis is.
                  I think a lot of Barnes as well. Never said I didn't. But your argument has been that the Raptors should select Barnes because he fits in better with the current roster. If he's the best player, then you'll get no argument from me. If its a case of him simply fitting in better, then you will.

                  Take a look at just about every great player, who's stayed with one team over a long period, and see how the cast around him almost always changes over the course of his career. Kobe won Championships with two different casts. So did Tim Duncan. Pipped was about the only holdover from before and after Jordan's first retirement. And those are only the ones that won Championships.

                  joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                  I disagree with this. I think allowing this core group of players to grow together, would show incremental success' solely based on growth and development.
                  Incremental, yes. Of course you also have to take into consideration that Reggie probably isn't back and Barbosa will probably be traded, so any incremental improvements might very well be offset by the loss of those two, who do impact the win/loss column. The team, while young and with some potential, is still not very talented.
                  Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                  • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    That depends on what you think you're drafting. If you think you're drafting another complimentary piece, then you're right. I don't see Anthony as another complimentary piece. I see him as a franchise player. In the NBA, you tend to go only as far as your franchise player can take you, hence the house analogy. Your franchise player is the house and the other players are the furniture. They're very important, but it's the house that you need to build around and that's going to determine your worth.

                    When Milwaukee had the #1 pick in 2005, they picked Andrew Bogut, who was a very good player, over Chris Paul because they already had TJ Ford and Mo Williams (as well as the fact that Bogut was a center). To me, Paul was, hands down, the best player in that draft and should have gone first. I'm betting, even if Bogut hadn't had injuries, Milwaukee would have rather have drafted Paul, who's a franchise player, instead of Bogut, who's not.
                    Oh ... well you didn't really specify that ONLY Davis could be the house in this instance.
                    Like I said many times, I think Barnes has potential to be a Franchise guy.
                    As I've said in past, you disagree with how good I think he will be. That's fine.

                    I disagree with how dominant you think Davis will be. At this point in time.

                    Tim W. wrote:
                    I think a lot of Barnes as well. Never said I didn't. But your argument has been that the Raptors should select Barnes because he fits in better with the current roster. If he's the best player, then you'll get no argument from me. If its a case of him simply fitting in better, then you will.
                    My argument has never been solely based off the fact that he is a Natural Small Forward.
                    It's a contributing factor, of course; but I've been adamant on the fact that I believe Harrison Barnes is an Elite level Talent that will contribute to the club from Day 1 and make The Toronto Raptors better.

                    Regardless, we have alot of time to let this debate unfold.

                    Davis needs alot more games under his belt to get me as convinced as you, about his future domination of the NBA.

                    Tim W. wrote:
                    Incremental, yes. Of course you also have to take into consideration that Reggie probably isn't back and Barbosa will probably be traded, so any incremental improvements might very well be offset by the loss of those two, who do impact the win/loss column. The team, while young and with some potential, is still not very talented.
                    And I believe Harrison Barnes would be a significant upgrade to that Core group of talent.
                    Immediately coming in and potentially being our best player in the Starting Line-up.

                    Comment


                    • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                      Oh ... well you didn't really specify that ONLY Davis could be the house in this instance.
                      Like I said many times, I think Barnes has potential to be a Franchise guy.
                      As I've said in past, you disagree with how good I think he will be. That's fine.

                      I disagree with how dominant you think Davis will be. At this point in time.
                      At this point, there could be a few guys that might end up being franchise players. I simply don't know. And keep in mind that if Davis were not in the picture, Barnes would probably be my first choice.

                      joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                      My argument has never been solely based off the fact that he is a Natural Small Forward.
                      It's a contributing factor, of course; but I've been adamant on the fact that I believe Harrison Barnes is an Elite level Talent that will contribute to the club from Day 1 and make The Toronto Raptors better.

                      Regardless, we have alot of time to let this debate unfold.

                      Davis needs alot more games under his belt to get me as convinced as you, about his future domination of the NBA.
                      It's never been based solely on his position, but in just about every discussion you bring up the fact that he fits in better positionally, so it seems to be of some importance to you. It's of no interest to me what position any of these guys play. None.

                      As for Davis, I like him almost as much as I liked Lebron when I saw him in high school. Besides, if you were sold on Barns before he hit the NCAA, why would Davis need more games under his belt?

                      joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                      And I believe Harrison Barnes would be a significant upgrade to that Core group of talent.
                      Immediately coming in and potentially being our best player in the Starting Line-up.
                      I also believe Barnes would be a significant upgrade, but if the object is to get the highest pick in the draft that he will be in, I don't think it's actually possible to play him while he's still in college. The whole issue with this part of the discussion is that I took issue with you saying the Raptors probably won't even be able to get the top pick because they'll be improved.
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                      • Apparently there is a belief that if the NBA still hasn't reached an agreement by the draft, that there will be no basis to prevent high school players from entering (can't find link, but read it on Twitter) the 2012 Draft. If they do reach an agreement, then the age limit might be raised to 20. So is it better for the Raptors if they dont reach an agreement, but they draft according to recent success, or is it better if they play a season, the Raptors end up near the bottom, but the age limit gets raised? A lower age limit will deepen the field, meaning that you won't need to draft as high to get a potentially great player, which the Raptors might need if they can't get a top 5 pick.

                        The worst case scenario, for the Raptors, is if they cancel the season, but reach an agreement before the draft and raise the age limit. So to me, either there is a season or the lockout gets dragged on until at least the summer.
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                        • Tim W. wrote:
                          It's of no interest to me what position any of these guys play. None.
                          Thats fine.
                          I think Ed Davis is a VERY special Player on his own, and thus am trying to work in a situation and scenario where we acquire a VERY special player in the draft, without having to give up another VERY special player.

                          Tim W. wrote:
                          Besides, if you were sold on Barns before he hit the NCAA, why would Davis need more games under his belt?
                          Wanting a player, and being sold on a player are two totally different things.
                          I wanted Barnes when he was in Highschool because he was exciting and heady.

                          I never knew he'd be ACC Freshman of the Year. Or break Freshman Records. That sold me on him.
                          Watching the way he played in big College Games. That sold me.

                          Time W. wrote:
                          The whole issue with this part of the discussion is that I took issue with you saying the Raptors probably won't even be able to get the top pick because they'll be improved.
                          Never said this. Ever. I don't think.
                          Never implied it, either. I don't think.
                          I simply said the odds are not in the Raptors favour of receiving the #1 Pick.
                          Be it if they do a re-draft, or a draft based on previous records.

                          Comment


                          • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                            Thats fine.
                            I think Ed Davis is a VERY special Player on his own, and thus am trying to work in a situation and scenario where we acquire a VERY special player in the draft, without having to give up another VERY special player.
                            Have I ever said anything but good things about Ed? Obviously I'd do what I can to keep him because, at this point, I see him as a very important piece to the future of the team. But however much I Ike him, he's simply not good enough to stop me from drafting a potential franchise player if he happens to play the same position as Ed.

                            joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                            Wanting a player, and being sold on a player are two totally different things.
                            I wanted Barnes when he was in Highschool because he was exciting and heady.

                            I never knew he'd be ACC Freshman of the Year. Or break Freshman Records. That sold me on him.
                            Watching the way he played in big College Games. That sold me.
                            He also struggled at NC, especially during the first half of the season, and shot poorly over the entire season. Barnes played well, but he didn't exactly have a freshman season for the ages. And while his tournament play was impressive, it wasn't amazing by any stretch of imagination. He still shot pretty poorly and turned the ball over too much. As I said, I like him, but really hoped he would have been more impressive in college considering the hype when he was in high school.

                            joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                            Never said this. Ever. I don't think.
                            Never implied it, either. I don't think.
                            I simply said the odds are not in the Raptors favour of receiving the #1 Pick.
                            Be it if they do a re-draft, or a draft based on previous records.
                            I was going on this quote...

                            joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                            There is another 5 months to determine who exactly is the best player in the pack; and then, we have to figure out where exactly we will end up picking. Which, the odds are not #1.
                            Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.
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                            • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              I don't think there's anyone who doesn't think Ed has more potential than Amir, but the reasoning behind trading Ed instead of Amir is that Amir would be much more amenable to coming off the bench than Ed. He's also signed for longer than Ed. I think it would be incredibly difficult to retain Ed if he were relegated to a bench role.

                              As for their trade value, I'm not sure how Amir has more. Ed is younger and has more potential. You said it yourself.
                              Why would Ed be opposed to coming off the bench if he was still given about 18-20 minutes a game? I see Ed as more of a very good role player than a superstar talent. Role players (even really good ones) should consider coming off the bench to help you win. If Ed is not happy doing that, even after his rookie deal expires (and he was drafted 13th overall - not in the top 5), then maybe he's not worth keeping after all. I also think that Ed's next deal would be cheaper than Amir's is now - especially with a new CBA.

                              As for Amir having more trade value then Ed... I would say that Amir has proven himself to be a very good player. We all love him - he was arguably the best Raptor last season. I think he has a tone of trade value, and more so than Ed. Even though Ed has lots of potential, he's still green in a lot of areas. Teams that are looking at getting into the playoffs (Indiana, Philly, Houston, Milwaukee, etc) may want someone like Amir over Ed since he can help push them in. Ed would be more favourable to teams that are rebuilding. But Amir, in my opinion, would be more favourable to everyone else.

                              I love both Amir and Ed.. however if we end up drafting a big because they are the best player available in the draft, then I'd rather keep Ed than Amir simply because Ed has more potential and we are still a rebuilding team, and because I see a lot of Amir in JV. Keeping Amir while we have JV seems to be a bit redundant to me in my opinion. It's doable, but it would be difficult to play them both at the same time.

                              This of course also assumes that Bargnani is the first to go before Amir or Ed.
                              Last edited by planetmars; Mon Nov 21, 2011, 12:44 AM. Reason: typos

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                              • planetmars wrote: View Post
                                Why would Ed be opposed to coming off the bench if he was still given about 18-20 minutes a game? I see Ed as more of a very good role player than a superstar talent. Role players (even really good ones) should consider coming off the bench to help you win. If Ed is not happy doing that, even after his rookie deal expires (and he was drafted 13th overall - not in the top 5), then maybe he's not worth keeping after all. I also think that Ed's next deal would be cheaper than Amir's is now - especially with a new CBA.

                                As for Amir having more trade value then Ed... I would say that Amir has proven himself to be a very good player. We all love him - he was arguably the best Raptor last season. I think he has a tone of trade value, and more so than Ed. Even though Ed has lots of potential, he's still green in a lot of areas. Teams that are looking at getting into the playoffs (Indiana, Philly, Houston, Milwaukee, etc) may want someone like Amir over Ed since he can help push them in. Ed would be more favourable to teams that are rebuilding. But Amir, in my opinion, would be more favourable to everyone else.

                                I love both Amir and Ed.. however if we end up drafting a big because they are the best player available in the draft, then I'd rather keep Ed than Amir simply because Ed has more potential and we are still a rebuilding team, and because I see a lot of Amir in JV. Keeping Amir while we have JV seems to be a bit redundant to me in my opinion. It's doable, but it would be difficult to play them both at the same time.

                                This of course also assumes that Bargnani is the first to go before Amir or Ed.
                                You think Ed Davis would be fine coming off the bench playing only 20 mpg? I sure don't. This is a lottery pick who has the potential to be an All Star, so I can't see him being fine with that role. And I don't blame him a bit. I think he's too talented to be playing only 20 mpg off the bench.

                                Hey, if it were possible, I'd most definitely keep Ed, but I don't see him staying in that role.

                                As for not being able to play Valanciunas and Amir together, I really don't see the problem. It's not as if both have to play in the same spot. There's plenty of room on the floor for them at the same time, especially since both appear to be able to hit the 15 footer. I think playing them both together would give the other team headaches with their constant movement and ability to find the open lane.

                                And I think most of us assume/hope Bargnani goes before Ed or Amir.
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