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2012 Draft Thursday, June 28th: Raptors select Terence Ross

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  • Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I also can't count many teams ever that have not won without an elite player. And I think your issue with Davis is not that he's a big man, but, as you state, you're not sold on him being a superstar. To me, he's the guy with the MOST superstar potential. And more than anything that's what the Raptors need.
    I think Barnes will be an elite player. I think he's going to bring it on both sides. I'm not saying they shouldn't draft an elite player, and really I'm not saying they shouldn't draft Davis. What I'm saying is that it's really early and I haven't seen enough of Davis and I don't believe he's been tested. I have seen a lot of Barnes and I love his game. I believe there are a lot of parallels between how Roy was valued in the 2006 draft and how Barnes is valued now. In other words he's known now, everybody knows he's going to be good but here we go again with this shot in the dark perceived "upside" limiting his status.

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    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
      WHo the hell is Buff Bagwell???
      Clearly you did not follow the late '90's Monday Night professional wrestling wars.

      Go to the 22 second mark.

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      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
        I just came across this video of Kentucky playing Morehead College in an exhibition game. I didn't hear about this game before, but the two things of interest to me, watching it, were some of the plays Davis made and the score- at one point it was 60-6 (that's not a typo)**Edit** 63-6.



        Davis' background playing guard really shows through in these clips. That's one place where the Bosh comparisons fail completely. Unfortunately I don't see him really developing those skills much on Kentucky. If were to have gone to a lesser school, I can see them being developed more out of necessity. On Kentucky, they only need him to play his role, not be the man.
        That is true for a number of the Kentucky players. Kidd-Gilchrist has been playing outstanding.

        One Wildcat who has been a letdown is, at least for me, is Marquis Teague - his PG skills are really lacking. Oil is to water as Teague is to Kendall Marshall.

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        • Hugmenot wrote: View Post
          You forgot what is usually your main argument:

          Thabeet’s an incredibly efficient player at 65% from the field

          Instead of (trivially) predicting the present based upon past indicators, can you list the 2011-12 draftees which will fail based upon these indicators?

          It would be interesting to check in a year or two if indeed these indicators have potential value.
          My main argument usually isn't how offensive efficient a player is. I simply argue based on the strengths and weaknesses of each player. And offensive efficiency in college can be VERY misleading. In fact, a lot of college stats can be misleading, which is why I don't give them a whole lot of weight.

          As for me "trivially" predicting the present, it's not like I just came up with that theory. I didn't like Austin Daye at the time for the exact reasons I highlighted above. Same goes for Earl Clark in the same draft for similar reasons. I wanted to stay away from Hassan Whiteside, last year, for similar reasons. And while Avery Bradley didn't share those fatal flaws, he had his own that made me want to stay away from him while a lot of people around here were wishing the Raptors would draft him.

          I'll be very happy to come up with a list of players I would avoid on draft day and have, on my blog.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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          • Matt52 wrote: View Post
            Clearly you did not follow the late '90's Monday Night professional wrestling wars.
            I did not. And thank you for reminding me why.
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
            Follow me on Twitter.

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            • Apollo wrote: View Post
              I think Barnes will be an elite player. I think he's going to bring it on both sides. I'm not saying they shouldn't draft an elite player, and really I'm not saying they shouldn't draft Davis. What I'm saying is that it's really early and I haven't seen enough of Davis and I don't believe he's been tested. I have seen a lot of Barnes and I love his game. I believe there are a lot of parallels between how Roy was valued in the 2006 draft and how Barnes is valued now. In other words he's known now, everybody knows he's going to be good but here we go again with this shot in the dark perceived "upside" limiting his status.
              Well, you did insinuate that you didn't want to draft Davis...
              Apollo wrote: View Post
              As for Anthony Davis, I'll just say one thing. Haven't the Raptors invested enough time in "fancy" PF's?
              And I'll say again I have nothing against Barnes, but the problem with both your and Joey's arguments is that you continue to water down it down by saying that Barnes is a better fit, that he plays a position the Raptors need etc. If you truly think that Barnes is going to be the best player in the draft, then I've got nothing against your choice. I disagree, but that's all just opinion. If you think the Raptors should draft Barnes over Davis for any other reason, then that's where I have the problem.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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              • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                That is true for a number of the Kentucky players. Kidd-Gilchrist has been playing outstanding.

                One Wildcat who has been a letdown is, at least for me, is Marquis Teague - his PG skills are really lacking. Oil is to water as Teague is to Kendall Marshall.
                Teague is that dreaded PG who doesn't actually seem to possess actual PG skills that I love so much. It's great that guys like that can score, but if you don't understand how to run an offense and actually make your teammates better, you're just an undersized SG who happens to bring the ball up the court more than anyone else.
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                Follow me on Twitter.

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                • http://www.nationofblue.com/kentucky...eam-chat-9986/

                  Live stream for Kentucky game.

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                  • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    And I'll say again I have nothing against Barnes, but the problem with both your and Joey's arguments is that you continue to water down it down by saying that Barnes is a better fit, that he plays a position the Raptors need etc.
                    Well I've already stated on a number of occasions how good I think Barnes can be, so I'm not sure why you continue to state that as my argument.
                    And how good I think he will be has nothing to do with what position he plays.

                    I think Harrison Barnes will turn out to be the best player in this draft.

                    The fact he plays a position the Raptors have a hole at is a bonus. Nothing more.

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                    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      Again, if you looked at Randolph and Thabeet's flaws, it wouldn't have been surprising that they failed. I've already shown Randolph's, but let's look at Thabeet's:


                      Right off the bat I'm questioning whether the guy is going to be successful in the NBA. A big man who was drafted for his defense (because he had little offense), but isn't a good man to man defender, isn't a good rebounder and doesn't have a high basketball IQ? Plus he doesn't always play hard? There's a good reason I (and a lot of others) thought Memphis were morons for taking him second in the draft.

                      Again you're ignoring a lot of you wonder why a lot of these guys didn't become successes in the NBA.
                      One of the severe negatives of having a single owner who gets intimately involved in choosing draft picks/making trades is demonstrated here. Apparently Heisley and GM Wallace clashed over this pick. Wallace wanted Curry. Heisley won out of course.

                      http://bleacherreport.com/articles/6...s-finally-over

                      ps...I had heard about this and Bleacher was the quickest link hit I got.

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                      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        Well, you did insinuate that you didn't want to draft Davis...
                        Yeah, right now. That doesn't mean I'm against it. I like Barnes more and I don't believe there's enough to warrant Davis' hype yet.

                        Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        And I'll say again I have nothing against Barnes, but the problem with both your and Joey's arguments is that you continue to water down it down by saying that Barnes is a better fit, that he plays a position the Raptors need etc. If you truly think that Barnes is going to be the best player in the draft, then I've got nothing against your choice. I disagree, but that's all just opinion. If you think the Raptors should draft Barnes over Davis for any other reason, then that's where I have the problem.
                        My point is, yes, I do like Barnes more right now and he works better for the Raptors as is. Like I keep telling you, it's early. Things are going to change about 10,000 times in those mock drafts before it's all said and done and then they're still all going to be wrong.

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                        • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                          Well I've already stated on a number of occasions how good I think Barnes can be, so I'm not sure why you continue to state that as my argument.
                          And how good I think he will be has nothing to do with what position he plays.

                          I think Harrison Barnes will turn out to be the best player in this draft.

                          The fact he plays a position the Raptors have a hole at is a bonus. Nothing more.
                          Yes, I know. We did go over that. But the problem is that both of you didn't state that outright. You both argued about positions and brought in other issues that were completely beside the point, hence why I took issue with your argument. Getting back to the house analogy, it's like selling a house and talking about the colour of the walls and carpet in the living room. It's nice, but that's not why I'm going to buy the house, is it?
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                          • Bendit wrote: View Post
                            One of the severe negatives of having a single owner who gets intimately involved in choosing draft picks/making trades is demonstrated here. Apparently Heisley and GM Wallace clashed over this pick. Wallace wanted Curry. Heisley won out of course.

                            http://bleacherreport.com/articles/6...s-finally-over

                            ps...I had heard about this and Bleacher was the quickest link hit I got.
                            Yet another reason to hate Michael Heisley!

                            And thanks for the explanation about the link, because when I first saw it you probably know what my first thought was.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

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                            • I have one question for the people who think that Barnes can be an elite player: do you honestly think he possesses the athleticism necessary? I just don't see it. Game changing, franchise-lifting players have two things in common: elite skillsets and elite athleticism. That's pro sports in a nutshell: you need to be a freak in both departments to be the best at your position. There's a reason why so many picks are wasted through gambling on talent: NBA GMs know this better than anyone else, and they're willing to take the risks necessary to land one of these guys because they are the difference makers in the league.

                              Barnes is going to be a great player, don't get me wrong. But will he be your crunch time scorer, your make-everyone-around-me-better guy? Not without the athleticism required to get his shot off with a man in his face. He can do it in college, but in the NBA? Long, quick wings will eat him up unless he develops the most reliable jumper in the game, and he has virtually no driving game to speak of now, let alone in the NBA where he won't be able to explode over taller guys in the lane.

                              To me, Harrison Barnes seems like he'll be a cross between Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. Not a bad guy to have by any means, but he's not going to carry you to the finals without a LOT of talent around him. Right now the Raptors keep drafting singles and doubles, and they'll be on the mediocrity treadmill until they draft a home run.

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                              • Apollo wrote: View Post
                                Yeah, right now. That doesn't mean I'm against it. I like Barnes more and I don't believe there's enough to warrant Davis' hype yet.

                                My point is, yes, I do like Barnes more right now and he works better for the Raptors as is. Like I keep telling you, it's early. Things are going to change about 10,000 times in those mock drafts before it's all said and done and then they're still all going to be wrong.
                                I understand it's early and I'm not saying that Davis is THE ONE, but just saying that he's looking very good, right now. If it is a case where you've got two players who are pretty much equal, then obviously you need to look at other factors but it's statements like this don't work for me...
                                Apollo wrote: View Post
                                If they get the top pick and Davis is the consensus #1 I'd rather see them try to trade down to get a guy like Barnes along with landing a good vet in the trade. This draft is not 2006. There looks to be a much stronger top ten and with a consensus 1 or 2 top picks. If the Raptors get the top spot again they will have leverage, unlike 2006 when you could argue four or five guys for the top pick.
                                If Davis is the consensus #1 then you'd trade down. Now if he's the consensus #1, then most people think he's the best player, so why would you trade down? That makes no sense if you claim that you'd pick the best player. Unless what you're saying is that no matter what other people say you think Barnes is the best player and that's who you're going to choose because you think he's the best player. But that's not how it's coming out.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                                Follow me on Twitter.

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