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  • #91
    Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Actually, the NBA, I believe, now calls them the NBA Champions. Some teams have World Champions on their banner, but the Spurs are one of the teams that don't.
    So, adding the world champion is a team decision and not a league decision? I did not know that.

    Comment


    • #92
      Tim W. wrote: View Post
      You admit you're not a "draft pick" guy, and don't seem to have a great grasp of the prospects, yet you seem to have a pretty strong opinion of what matters and what doesn't. This seems kind of like the guy who says he doesn't understand science, but thinks global warming is bogus because it's cold outside. He's more than welcome to his opinion, but if he's going to say it out loud, he better be ready to either defend it or feel the backlash of those who do know more about it than he does.
      why don't I have a great grasp of prospects? because I actually admit I'm wrong at times (which seems to be a rare thing for some), or because I don't agree with you? That hardly means I don't watch, or know whats going on with these guys. As I said before, young guys are young guys.

      I really don't have "that strong of an opinion" on it. If you read back on my posts it was 1) a response to what I thought were inaccurate (or incomplete) comments by Apollo, 2) a mention to "take it with a grain of salt" (is that a "strong opinion"?), and 3) thinking with eBrian said it best that "anything short of playing at an extremely high if not dominating level would be a total disaster" (I thought, and always think, the exact same things with regards to all the initial top prospects going into the march madness by the way. It should never make a player, but it can always break a player.)

      It was you who dragged me in with the "high expectations" comment. Its my own fault for even responding to it, that I'll admit, but don't start telling me what or how strong my opinion is after it was your sarcasm and then later Apollo's comments that kept me in the conversation.

      Maybe go back and read all u19 threads... and then you'll see how "strong" my opinion is on it (actually I'll save you time, you won't see me involved in them).

      Finally, and I'll leave the conversation here in fear of getting to 'strongly' opinionated for your liking. The problem with your analogy Tim... is that the "backlash" is only coming from people who THINK they know more than I do only because their OPINION couldn't possibly be wrong. Atleast thatguythere doesn't mince words when he calls me stupid, it comes off alot less arrogant that way.

      Comment


      • #93
        Soft Euro wrote: View Post
        Well ... for some reason the NBA calls the champion the champion of the world. I remember Popovic questioning this a couple of years ago. But apparently, for some (including some in charge), it does start and end in America.
        Greg Popovich is my favorite personality in the NBA. He also has a different mindset than most jock Americans (or worldview) and very grounded intellectually. Here is a piece that speaks to this somewhat :

        http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/b...o-1102569.html

        Comment


        • #94
          GarbageTime wrote: View Post
          why don't I have a great grasp of prospects? because I actually admit I'm wrong at times (which seems to be a rare thing for some), or because I don't agree with you? That hardly means I don't watch, or know whats going on with these guys. As I said before, young guys are young guys.

          I really don't have "that strong of an opinion" on it. If you read back on my posts it was 1) a response to what I thought were inaccurate (or incomplete) comments by Apollo, 2) a mention to "take it with a grain of salt" (is that a "strong opinion"?), and 3) thinking with eBrian said it best that "anything short of playing at an extremely high if not dominating level would be a total disaster" (I thought, and always think, the exact same things with regards to all the initial top prospects going into the march madness by the way. It should never make a player, but it can always break a player.)

          It was you who dragged me in with the "high expectations" comment. Its my own fault for even responding to it, that I'll admit, but don't start telling me what or how strong my opinion is after it was your sarcasm and then later Apollo's comments that kept me in the conversation.

          Maybe go back and read all u19 threads... and then you'll see how "strong" my opinion is on it (actually I'll save you time, you won't see me involved in them).

          Finally, and I'll leave the conversation here in fear of getting to 'strongly' opinionated for your liking. The problem with your analogy Tim... is that the "backlash" is only coming from people who THINK they know more than I do only because their OPINION couldn't possibly be wrong. Atleast thatguythere doesn't mince words when he calls me stupid, it comes off alot less arrogant that way.
          From your comments, it seemed to me that you were saying that you don't pay that much attention to prospects, hence the "not a draft pick guy" comment. If you do pay attention to that sort of thing, then I apologize, but you might want to rethink some of what you say because I can't believe I'm the only one who misconstrued what you said.

          And if you don't have a strong opinion about it, then why bring it up at all and continue to respond? If I don't have a strong opinion about something, I usually just say that the other person might be right. Who knows? In other words, I don't feel a need to continue to debate it.

          And I have no problem with someone who doesn't agree with me, as long as their argument is logical and able to be backed up. You have stated several times that you didn't think much of the competition in the U19 tournament and even called the other players a "bunch of nobodies". What exactly did you base your opinion on? These are all very good players, some of the best in their age group in their country, and a number of which will probably end up being drafted. Just because you haven't heard of them most don't play in the NCAA doesn't mean they're nobodies. Did you read the link to the front page article? There were a number of good prospects in the tournament. How many good prospects are on the average NCAA team? Possibly one?

          If you want to say that nothing outside of the NBA proves anything, then you might have a point. Except that no one is saying Valanciunas' domination is proof of anything. It's a good indicator. Just as playing well in the NCAA is a good indicator. Loads of players have played well in college but done nothing in the NCAA. But when you look at HOW one plays, not just how well, then you get a better indication.

          Lastly, as others have pointed out, you seem to overvalue basketball played in the US over it played elsewhere. Do you really think the average NCAA team is better than the average Euroleague team? Then why don't more college players go over there and dominate? In fact few do.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
          Follow me on Twitter.

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          • #95
            Soft Euro wrote: View Post
            So, adding the world champion is a team decision and not a league decision? I did not know that.
            Don't quote me on that, but I recall reading something about that a few years ago.
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
            Follow me on Twitter.

            Comment


            • #96
              GarbageTime wrote: View Post
              Suddenly we can't use opinion around here without having to prove it as if its fact? Get over yourself.

              As I told Tim, if you don't agree with me fine. By all means think this tournament is whatever you want to... I don't think this tournament means squat.
              I'm sorry. I just thought someone who felt so strongly about a statement could support their opinion with at least something. Most people who state their opinion around here do explain why they feel the way they feel. It's why a lot of these threads are so long. I always find the "why" the most interesting question answered around here.

              Comment


              • #97
                Let me try to sum up this thread without anyone hurting eachother's feelings anymore.

                1. Every fan has a right to their opinion. Let's not attack eachother's loyalty for the team. Obviously we all love the Raptors very much and want to see them do well.

                2a. One view is that JV's performance in this tournament is very encouraging. He dominated the tournament, that much has to be said. International ball has come a long way and he was the best out of the group that played in this tournament. There's a few future NBA prospects who played in this tournament and they weren't nearly as good as JV was.

                2b. One view is that JV's performance in this tournament means very little. He dominated a tournament in which he should have dominated, because as a pick from the 2011 NBA Draft, he should dominate anyone who wasn't drafted in that draft. Yes, there are some "future" prospects, but that is kind of like being impressed when a kid who failed grade 8 repeats the grade and then graduates at the top of his class. It's not that impressive, because he was supposed to be good.

                I don't think there is right answer here other than #1. Obviously if you value prospects like Lamb or Young or other Euro players, then JV really did outperform them and therefore 2a all the way. If you think Young and other Euros are flashes in the pan that are still a full year of college/international ball away from developing into legitimate prospects, then 2b is the way to go. It's really just a matter of perspective.

                Personally, I'm on the #1 and 2b side. I'm glad JV didn't fall flat on his face, but I really see this particular tournament as kind of a no-brainer. If there was another 2011 NBA Draftee in this draft to compare to, like let's say Derrick Williams played for Team USA and he sucked ass. Well, that would help as well in really determining how much of an impact this tournament should have on my view of our draft pick. Otherwise, all in all, so far so good for Toronto Raptors' future.
                Last edited by ebrian; Wed Jul 13, 2011, 01:46 PM.
                your pal,
                ebrian

                Comment


                • #98
                  Wasn't JV the top choice for the teams that leaned towards "analytics", and that was based on his performance in the euroleague league (where he played with men instead of boys, so the numbers still translated, enough to get noticed)?


                  If anything this tournament already establishes what these analytics guys see, that this kid is very efficient with his time, size and position.

                  As to how that will translate into the NBA, no one knows. There is also a possibility that he is a flop, I personally doubt that, but I will not stake anything on his success this early.
                  Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Wed Jul 13, 2011, 01:56 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    ebrian wrote: View Post
                    2b. One view is that JV's performance in this tournament means very little. He dominated a tournament in which he should have dominated, because as a pick from the 2011 NBA Draft, he should dominate anyone who wasn't drafted in that draft. Yes, there are some "future" prospects, but that is kind of like being impressed when a kid who failed grade 8 repeats the grade and then graduates at the top of his class. It's not that impressive, because he was supposed to be good.

                    I don't think there is right answer here other than #1. Obviously if you value prospects like Lamb or Young or other Euro players, then JV really did outperform them and therefore 2a all the way. If you think Young and other Euros are flashes in the pan that are still a full year of college/international ball away from developing into legitimate prospects, then 2b is the way to go. It's really just a matter of perspective.
                    It wasn't like the kid who repeated grade 8 and the does well because most everyone else in the tournament was the same age as Valanciunas. Young is actually a couple of months OLDER than Valanciunas, and is pegged as a lottery pick in a draft much deeper than this one. Young not only didn't dominate, he wasn't one of the best players in the tournament, yet it's not raising a lot of red flags because there was a lot of talent in the tournament.

                    It seems to me that a lot of the same people who wanted an NCAA player are the same ones who don't think much of the level of the tournament. I don't think that's a coincidence.
                    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                    Follow me on Twitter.

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                    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      Don't quote me on that, but I recall reading something about that a few years ago.
                      Seems you are right. Here is a discussion on the topic...

                      http://www.spursreport.com/forums/sp...changed-2.html

                      Comment


                      • ebrian wrote: View Post

                        2b. One view is that JV's performance in this tournament means very little. He dominated a tournament in which he should have dominated, because as a pick from the 2011 NBA Draft, he should dominate anyone who wasn't drafted in that draft. Yes, there are some "future" prospects, but that is kind of like being impressed when a kid who failed grade 8 repeats the grade and then graduates at the top of his class. It's not that impressive, because he was supposed to be good.
                        I dont really understand this reasoning especially the latter part (8th grade failure...).

                        One of the reasons I am encouraged by JV's performance at the recently concluded tournament and his prospects going forward is precisely because he has yet to "fail" and hasnt repeated any level that I am aware of. He has consistently improved and done very well/dominated with the world's under 16, under 18 and now under 19. I dont see the analogy as being relevant here or that such a trajectory is ever a given. Harrison Barnes is a case in point...he is "repeating" and a more apt subject for the analogy. And no harm done because Barnes shall be the better for it.

                        That said, all I hope for is that JV just keeps busting through his ceiling each year and so far it looks promising. The only player who garnered, from some, the "cant miss" tag in this draft was Kyrie Irving. So, if Irving had played and dominated I might have had the ho hum response to his success. In this case it was a relative unknown (in comp. to KI) but more importantly he was rhe Raptors pick that a great many booed when chosen. My own choices were Kanter and Kemba but pleased with the JV choice (b/c of his defense first outlook as a centre).

                        Comment


                        • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          It wasn't like the kid who repeated grade 8 and the does well because most everyone else in the tournament was the same age as Valanciunas. Young is actually a couple of months OLDER than Valanciunas, and is pegged as a lottery pick in a draft much deeper than this one. Young not only didn't dominate, he wasn't one of the best players in the tournament, yet it's not raising a lot of red flags because there was a lot of talent in the tournament.

                          It seems to me that a lot of the same people who wanted an NCAA player are the same ones who don't think much of the level of the tournament. I don't think that's a coincidence.
                          Perhaps I chose a bad analogy, but I meant development not age. I could not care less how old a kid is. Put it this way, JV was drafted in the 2011 NBA Draft. As you've pointed out, there were other guys in this tournament that were the same age but not drafted. Why? Probably the same reason JV dominated them. If Harrison Barnes, Perry Jones or Jared Sullinger had played in this tournament.. guys who were projected in the same draft year as JV, that might help bring some closure on this for me.

                          I don't know if every person in here managing their expectations are anti-JV or pro-NCAA. I can't answer for them. In terms of Young, I don't know why he struggled or why he didn't dominate. Maybe it's because he's a 6'9" center, and the next tallest starter on his team was 6'7". Maybe the reason is the same as why he decided it wouldn't be wise to declare for the 2011 draft. Maybe he's just not ready. Maybe when draft time comes next year, he won't even crack the top 20, or 30. It's not uncommon for a player to be ranked highly in NCAA and then a year later get drafted outside the top 20, or even in the second round. Jordan Hamilton was top 10 at this time last year, he was taken 26th. Josh Selby same thing, taken in the second round. Kyle Singler was considered top 10 in his freshman year, played a couple more years in college and ended taken in the second round this year.

                          Anyway, in case it's not obvious, I would love, *LOVE* to be proven wrong about this kid. I just don't think this time it's been done yet. Maybe after the August tourney.
                          your pal,
                          ebrian

                          Comment


                          • ebrian wrote: View Post
                            Perhaps I chose a bad analogy, but I meant development not age. I could not care less how old a kid is. Put it this way, JV was drafted in the 2011 NBA Draft. As you've pointed out, there were other guys in this tournament that were the same age but not drafted. Why? Probably the same reason JV dominated them. If Harrison Barnes, Perry Jones or Jared Sullinger had played in this tournament.. guys who were projected in the same draft year as JV, that might help bring some closure on this for me.

                            I don't know if every person in here managing their expectations are anti-JV or pro-NCAA. I can't answer for them. In terms of Young, I don't know why he struggled or why he didn't dominate. Maybe it's because he's a 6'9" center, and the next tallest starter on his team was 6'7". Maybe the reason is the same as why he decided it wouldn't be wise to declare for the 2011 draft. Maybe he's just not ready. Maybe when draft time comes next year, he won't even crack the top 20, or 30. It's not uncommon for a player to be ranked highly in NCAA and then a year later get drafted outside the top 20, or even in the second round. Jordan Hamilton was top 10 at this time last year, he was taken 26th. Josh Selby same thing, taken in the second round. Kyle Singler was considered top 10 in his freshman year, played a couple more years in college and ended taken in the second round this year.

                            Anyway, in case it's not obvious, I would love, *LOVE* to be proven wrong about this kid. I just don't think this time it's been done yet. Maybe after the August tourney.
                            One main reason other players who were in the tournament didn't get drafting is because they didn't make themselves eligible. Young couldn't have entered the draft because he's not a year out of high school. Maybe Valanciunas dominated like he did because he's simply a very good player.

                            Obviously until you actually play in the NBA, there's no guarantee of how you'll do. That's why the draft is usually a gamble. Sometimes it pays off big, other times it doesn't. But the fact is that Kemba's play in the NCAA tournament means only slightly more than Valanciunas' in the U19 tournament, in terms of success in the NBA. Because you like Kemba more, though, you are going to put far more weight to it, despite lots of history of players dominating in the tournament only to be mediocre players, at best, in the NBA. Success in either is not proof of success in the NBA, but it is an indication of potential, though. Add that to other things, like physical abilities, skills and mental aspects and it gives you a pretty damn good picture. Physically, Valanciunas has loads of potential because the only thing he's missing is strength, which is easily added with his frame and age. He's got good hands, has shown to be an excellent rebounder and shot blocker, and has a soft touch around the basket. Mentally, he's extremely competitive, aggressive and hard working. And he doesn't shy away from pressure. He's not a stiff, unathletic center dominating simply because he's bigger and stronger than everyone else. That's the type of player who can excel in the NCAA and Europe, but struggle in the NBA.

                            The fact that smart basketball people are now calling the Valanciunas pick a possible steal, and that he might end up being the best player in the draft, based a lot on what he's shown in the tournament, should tell you something.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

                            Comment


                            • Tim, you're simply wrong about my feelings towards this. Why would managing my expectations about JV have anything to do with Kemba Walker? I'm certainly not a Charlotte Bobcats fan and don't plan on becoming one. Do I wish we drafted Kemba, sure. But I'm not some petty fan who is waiting for a chance to prove you all wrong. And I'm certainly not comparing Kemba Walker to JV. At all. Those comparisons became pointless the moment we drafted JV.

                              I'm still a Raptors fan who wants to see JV (and the Raptors) perform well. Believe me, I am. The Raptors have had some pretty piss poor 7 footers in our storied history and I would love to see JV be the first one who actually turned out good.

                              This tournament simply has not convinced me -- a Raptors fan (I feel like if I don't keep saying this then Joey will be all over it..hehe). If the 6'9" C Patric Young ends up being a lottery pick a year from now (not projected mind you, but an actual a top ~10 pick), then I'll look back on this tournament and say "Wow, you guys were right about hyping him up.. we really got a steal." The fact is, besides JV, Young and Lamb, there were no other players in the entire tournament who were taken in the 2011 NBA Draft or projected to be taken in the 2012 NBA Draft. The only other name I could find was Lucas Nogueira, from Brazil, who is projected to be taken in the second round next year. So really we're looking at a top 5 pick from a 2011 NBA Draft who dominated:

                              1. Patric Young, a projected 2012 lottery pick by DraftExpress but not listed in NBADraft.net's 2012 Mock Draft.
                              2. Jeremy Lamb, a projected 2012 lottery pick by NBADraft.net but mid-20s on DraftExpress.
                              3. Lucas Nogueira, a projected second round pick by DraftExpress.
                              .. and a whole bunch of guys that *might* be drafted in 2013.

                              I certainly don't blame JV, it's not his fault that his peers didn't participate. But should I be impressed by it?

                              In two months if JV makes the grown-ups team and performs at a decent level against grown-ups (I'd be happy with the 8 points and 6 rebounds that he averaged last year), that will convince me a whole lot more. You can be the one who starts the thread entitled "ATTENTION ebrian" with a message saying "Are you convinced yet?" and I'll try to be the first person replying with "Yes sir, I'm definitely getting there."

                              Until then, I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.
                              your pal,
                              ebrian

                              Comment


                              • ebrian wrote: View Post
                                This tournament simply has not convinced me -- a Raptors fan (I feel like if I don't keep saying this then Joey will be all over it..hehe).
                                :P I realize you're making a joke; but I never said, "this tournament should convince everyone of JVs greatness. And if it doesn't, then you're not a fan."

                                All I said is that it should be exciting to anyone that wants to see the Raptors acquire talent.
                                Hard working talent, the likes of which has scarcely been seen 'round these parts.
                                Or I think it should be exciting, anyway. Clearly I was mistaken.

                                As I said before, the level of emotion and energy that JV plays with, is independent of his competition.
                                The level of heart and enthusiasm he has for the game, is independent of his competition.
                                The hard work and dedication he shows toward his craft is independent of his competition.
                                Those things are exciting to see in a young player.

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