Calderon Injured at Eurobasket!!

[Apollo]

That probably won't be the case, one way or another, once the owners get finished thrashing the PA. I'm thinking if the PA decertifies then Calderon's contract will be on the chopping block. If the PA doesn't crumble and they do give in to the owners then we're talking a hard cap and contracts league wide probably scaled back. Calderon is probably getting a shave, whether is be a ProGlide or a Guillotine.

[heinz57]

So this -- like Arse's specious editorial on the main page -- has turned from "Jose is hurt (again)" to "Jose sucks" (again). Well, we're nothing if not a predictable bunch of fans, that's for sure.

1. Jose isn't injured. It was a twisted ankle and he's expected to play today in the semi-final. So talk of him being "injury-prone" can hopefully cease.
2. ... leaving us to either call this a non-story and move on, or continue to debate whether Jose does, in fact, suck.

- Jose doesn't suck. His defense is no worse than half the starting PGs in the league. As Tim W. stated, there aren't many "defensive stoppers" in the PG ranks. And on offense, he is highly efficient and effective.

- He's not too old to be considered a key part of the Raptors in 2011-12 or 2012-13 (when his contract expires). Whoever comes and goes after the new CBA signed and before the season starts, the team needs veterans badly, and having one who has been here a long time, wants to be here, has a solid work ethic, and is clearly a passionate, team player is a positive, not a negative.

- His contract isn't an albatross. It's high for what he does, but it's not high in comparison to other players around the league. And it's an expiring during the next 'full' season in 2012. Trade him then, or let him walk, or re-sign him at a (much) lower salary if he wants to begin and end his career in the same city.

I honestly don't know why we spend so much time discussing Jose when he's one of the true constants -- in terms of being a good soldier and in terms of efficient, steady on-court contribution -- that the team has right now.

who said he sucks?

i personally love jose.. and couldnt imagine him on another team, but i dont have blinders on about him..

his defense ranges between awful to barely passable. that's just the truth.

and the "well, other PGs aren't good defenders either" type arguments are nonsense... they don't prove he doesn't suck on D... it just proves they ALL suck on D

[GarbageTime]

Jose is a very good offensive player when he takes his open shots. He's an excellent open shooter, he protects the ball at all times and has good court vision. This isn't about Chris Paul but there is no shame in him having trouble guarding Jose Calderon because most people have trouble guarding Jose Calderon unless Jose is hurt. I've never complained about Jose's offensive game besides the fact that at times he "goes into his shell", becoming too conservative or not willing to take his open shots when he should. Nobody on the Raptors can hit an open shot from anywhere better than a healthy Jose Calderon.

Who Chris Paul can and cannot guard has nothing to do with Jose's nightly human pylon impersonation.



I'll pass because I wasn't suggesting you said that. If we're talking middle ground, then Jose Calderon is on the side closest to horrible.

I'm telling you guys, if there's a season, the only way Jose stays in the starting five all season is because Bayless falls flat on his face. My money is on Bayless impressing Casey enough to take over starting PG duties before the season is out.

Chris Paul's (perhaps the best PG (or top 3 anyways) in the NBA offensively over the past 4 years) numbers over that same time period:

14 pts on 50% fg%, 22% 3pt% 12 assists. (7 games)

and in fact if I take the last 3 seasons its:

11.2 pts on 35% shooting, 11% from 3 and 10.5 assists (5 games)

Last year it was

6.5 pts on 22% fg%, 0% from 3 and 12.5 assists (2 games)


Jose average vs Chris Paul > Jose's Seasonal averages over that time period
Chris Paul's average vs Jose < Paul's seasonal averages over that time period

So does Jose still have a nightly pylon performance?

I know this is just one player... but also arguable the best PG in the NBA. But I think it goes to show just how mixed up people have become with Jose's D. His injury definetely held him back for a couple years there. He has also never been a 'good' defensive PG, and you won't see him getting better... but this "horrible" and "terrible" stuff is not accurate.

If you want to tell me he has problems staying infront of speedy PGs I'll agree. But I'll also say so do most of the other PGs in the NBA.

What you'll find when you go through Jose's opponents #s is that they are pretty close to their per 36 numbers. Some ofcourse are high (Curry, Beno udrih) while others are low (Rondo, Paul). As a whole, his opponents tend to do exactly what they do on average... which to me puts him pretty close to average defensively.

If you want to say he's not good defensively, I'm all with you. But this team has much larger defensive concerns than Jose. They are named Demar Derozan and Andrea Bargnani.

This does not mean Casey will start him next year, but Casey playing him behind Bayless next year should also not be a statement on his D as much as a statement on the direction the team is (and probably should be) taking.

[jimmie]

who said he sucks?

and the "well, other PGs aren't good defenders either" type arguments are nonsense... they don't prove he doesn't suck on D... it just proves they ALL suck on D

Actually, it's not nonsense at all. If they ALL suck on D, then there's really no value to discussing whether Jose also sucks. In that case, you might just as well evaluate PGs purely on what they do on the offensive side of the ball. Where Jose would fare quite well in comparison to his peers.

Anyway, it's not meant to say "they ALL suck on D" -- it's meant to say that, by nature and by the rules of the game, the PG position is very difficult to defend in the NBA, so using Jose's perceived defensive weaknesses as a way to judge his worth to the Raptors is what's really nonsense.

If you want to opine that Jose's defense, in comparison to all the other PGs in the league, is ESPECIALLY horrible, well, you are entitled to that opinion. Bottom half of PG defenders? Maybe, but that's still a lot of conjecture, and even if true, I'd still take that in return for the offensive leadership he brings.

[Apollo]

Chris Paul's (perhaps the best PG (or top 3 anyways) in the NBA offensively over the past 4 years) numbers over that same time period:

14 pts on 50% fg%, 22% 3pt% 12 assists. (7 games)

and in fact if I take the last 3 seasons its:

11.2 pts on 35% shooting, 11% from 3 and 10.5 assists (5 games)

Last year it was

6.5 pts on 22% fg%, 0% from 3 and 12.5 assists (2 games)


Jose average vs Chris Paul > Jose's Seasonal averages over that time period
Chris Paul's average vs Jose < Paul's seasonal averages over that time period

So does Jose still have a nightly pylon performance?

While I appreciate the effort put forth I feel you're being a little narrow sighted. I have a great deal of respect for Chris Paul but we're talking just one match up out of 30 here... I know Jose is a poor defender because I've seen him play many, many, many times. Defense can't be accurately valued based on stats alone, let alone solely on one particular match up. It's too bad he can't play Chris Paul for 82 games per season I guess.

[Joey]

Actually, it's not nonsense at all. If they ALL suck on D, then there's really no value to discussing whether Jose also sucks. In that case, you might just as well evaluate PGs purely on what they do on the offensive side of the ball. Where Jose would fare quite well in comparison to his peers.

Anyway, it's not meant to say "they ALL suck on D" -- it's meant to say that, by nature and by the rules of the game, the PG position is very difficult to defend in the NBA, so using Jose's perceived defensive weaknesses as a way to judge his worth to the Raptors is what's really nonsense.

If you want to opine that Jose's defense, in comparison to all the other PGs in the league, is ESPECIALLY horrible, well, you are entitled to that opinion. Bottom half of PG defenders? Maybe, but that's still a lot of conjecture, and even if true, I'd still take that in return for the offensive leadership he brings.

This message is Approved by joey_hesketh.

What you'll find when you go through Jose's opponents #s is that they are pretty close to their per 36 numbers. Some ofcourse are high (Curry, Beno udrih) while others are low (Rondo, Paul). As a whole, his opponents tend to do exactly what they do on average... which to me puts him pretty close to average defensively.

This too.





Jose is Rick Astley! FTW!

[GarbageTime]

While I appreciate the effort put forth I feel you're being a little narrow sighted. I have a great deal of respect for Chris Paul but we're talking just one match up out of 30 here... I know Jose is a poor defender because I've seen him play many, many, many times. Defense can't be accurately valued based on stats alone, let alone solely on one particular match up. It's too bad he can't play Chris Paul for 82 games per season I guess.

My point was that people make claims similar to yours that "Jose gets beat every night" (paraphrased)... when really its not true. I just used Chris Paul as an example (I figured it would get more credence than using say Anthony Johnson or Chris Duhon) since he is a top notch PG both defensively and offensively. It stands to reason that a top end defensive PG should be able to stop/slow down a non-elite PG and destroy a bad defensive PG offensively over the course of (nearly) half a decade no? Chris Paul should be, at the very least, the epitome of a "bad matchup" for Jose. The numbers are ofcourse very limited and not close to perfect, but they say something much different than Jose's rep does.

I have also watched Jose play many, many, many times yet haven't come to the same conclusion. I've also watched numerous other PGs play many, many, many times versus many, many, many other opponents. PGs get beat. Jose is, more or less, the same victim the majority of PGs have become. We just get to watch him on a nightly basis while others we see on occasion with a much less vested interest. I think the reality is he simply hasn't lost that monkey that jumped on his back in 2008/09.

For example:

all he does on defense is watching and clapping

(from Heinz57)

how often does Jose just watch or stand around?

when was the last time one remembers Jose clapping on D? Did he even do it once this year? Yet he still gets that stigma.

In fairness the teams D hasn't gotten better so I can see how its difficult for some to say player X or Y is better than before.

I'll fully admit to being a big Jose fan.... I'm just disappointed that it seems like he'll go down in Raptors infamy (with alot of fans anyways) based on his apparent lack of D (ie. as the "matador" or hand clap D).

[planetmars]

Does defense really matter for a PG? Heck, the Heat had Bibby and Chalmers and made it to the Finals. How many rings does Derek Fisher have? Stockton was not the fastest tool in the shed, but the Jazz did pretty good with him as their QB. And you can't tell me that Magic Johnson was a defensive wizard either.

The one thing I really like about Calderon is his court vision. He's no Steve Nash, but that guy can run an offense. If Bayless gets 30mins a game, that's fine, but I hope he can start learning how to properly run an offense, because that's an essential skill a PG needs, and Bayless didn't really have that last year.

[RapthoseLeafs]

Jose & Raptor Future

.
My thoughts on why Jose is valuable; why his future needs to be with this team, and what he needs to do (to help improve the team):

• Veteran leadership - Raptors need this desperately. You can't parachute this quality in. Jose likes it here, has real heart, and would acquiesce to any role given him.
  
  
• Jose's Contract - new CBA aside, there's only 1.5 years left (and that's from an optimist)
  
  
• Ole that Hamstring - despite his current injury apparently being an ankle issue, I still believe the emphasis (for the future), should be on improving his hamstring rehabilitation, whether its' by yoga or Pilates. Hammys take time.
  
  
• Shoot more 3 pointers - Jose has averaged .391 (over last 3 years), yet has continually taken less perimeter shots, and seen his average drop as well. Raptors were LAST in 2010-11, in part because 2 of their best 3 point shooters, took less shots. It's no big revelation in saying this area of the Raptors game needs a substantial improvement.
  
  
• Future Role - Jose would make a great mentor for that "future" PG, that we need to draft (or acquire). I'm not convinced Bayless is our future - too petulant, and not enough Court vision - IMO.

[Tim W.]

I'll pass because I wasn't suggesting you said that.

Good defensive PGs don't get beat by everybody and their Grandmother on a nightly basis Tim.

Really?

If we're talking middle ground, then Jose Calderon is on the side closest to horrible.

Calderon is a below average defender, but his defense was a lot better this past year. The year before that, I'd agree it was horrible, although a lot of that had to do with his injury. You know Calderon would take the criticism to heart and improve, and he did. As I said, though, his biggest problem is his lack of lateral quickness.

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't even see when Calderon plays good defense, since they've already reached the conclusion he's a horrible defender, which isn't true.

I'm telling you guys, if there's a season, the only way Jose stays in the starting five all season is because Bayless falls flat on his face. My money is on Bayless impressing Casey enough to take over starting PG duties before the season is out.

That might be true, but that has nothing to do with Bayless being better. The organization would love to see Bayless becoming the PG of the future. Bayless certainly has talent, but I'd take Calderon in a game over Bayless any day. And for all of Bayless' physical abilities, he might be a worse defender than Calderon.

[Tim W.]

Too bad he's getting 10 Mil...

Who cares? I'm not paying for it. At least he has a positive effect on the team when he's on the floor. Most of the other Raptors don't.

[Tim W.]

Does defense really matter for a PG? Heck, the Heat had Bibby and Chalmers and made it to the Finals. How many rings does Derek Fisher have? Stockton was not the fastest tool in the shed, but the Jazz did pretty good with him as their QB. And you can't tell me that Magic Johnson was a defensive wizard either.

The one thing I really like about Calderon is his court vision. He's no Steve Nash, but that guy can run an offense. If Bayless gets 30mins a game, that's fine, but I hope he can start learning how to properly run an offense, because that's an essential skill a PG needs, and Bayless didn't really have that last year.

I agree with everything, but just need to mention one thing. You obviously didn't see Stockton in his prime. He was one of the quickest PGs in the league. And he was always, at the very least, an above average defender.

And Chalmers is actually a good defender. It's about the ONLY thing he's good at, but he is a good one.

I do agree about your argument, though. Of all the positions, the PG position is the one that you can get away with a poor defender at.

Lakers: Fisher
Spurs: Parker
Miami: Jason Williams
Spurs: Avery Johnson
Bulls: BJ Armstrong/John Paxson

All these guys were starters on Championship teams, but were below average defenders. I'm not saying it's not nice to have a good defensive PG, but it's really the only position where good defense isn't necessary.

[NoPropsneeded]

JB IMO is the future PG but lets see what the guy can do with 30 MPG. If he can drop like 20 points and 5.5 -6 Assists then we're all good if not then well i'd be pretty disappointed.

[Tim W.]

JB IMO is the future PG but lets see what the guy can do with 30 MPG. If he can drop like 20 points and 5.5 -6 Assists then we're all good if not then well i'd be pretty disappointed.

Why do you care what stats he puts up? Isn't the most important thing for him to do to run an offense, something he has yet to show? This idea that a player needs to put up this stat or this stat drives me nuts. What he needs to do is be able to contribute in a meaningful way and help his team win. Period. I'd rather have a PG scoring 12 ppg, but making his teammates better (cough*Calderon*) than a guy who can score, but doesn't have a clue how to make his teammates better.

I think Bayless has potential, but he needs to worry a lot more about passing than shooting if he's going to help his team win.

[Eurobasket]

Why do you care what stats he puts up? Isn't the most important thing for him to do to run an offense, something he has yet to show? This idea that a player needs to put up this stat or this stat drives me nuts. What he needs to do is be able to contribute in a meaningful way and help his team win. Period. I'd rather have a PG scoring 12 ppg, but making his teammates better (cough*Calderon*) than a guy who can score, but doesn't have a clue how to make his teammates better.

I think Bayless has potential, but he needs to worry a lot more about passing than shooting if he's going to help his team win.

I totally agree. This stat nonsense is ruining the game, the players think of nothing else but inflating their "numbers". I don't care if he puts up 30 pts and 10 ast per game, if the Raptors are losing the games, who cares? It's all about winning games for your team, he can be scoreless and still play extremely well. Of course, it's not going to look good on his stat sheet and the idiots who give contracts based on the stats alone may give him a few million less...

Jose was one of the best PG in the league before the injuries started, I like him but unfortunately I don't see him getting any better. And if Bayless is the guy who is supposed to take the Raptors to new heights, we have many disappointing years ahead of us...