View Poll Results: Grade Valanciunas' Season

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    50 25.38%
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    106 53.81%
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    37 18.78%
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    1 0.51%
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Thread: Everything Valanciunas

  1. #11181
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    Quote JamesNaismith wrote: View Post
    That's the point.

    It's not the coaching staff's responsibility (although they should have a vested interest) in a player improving their game. Not to mention as I stated even on our own roster, DeRozan is a clear example of this himself. It wasn't Casey developing him over the years, it was DeMar making his own personal commitment each summer to add things to his game. Even in a single year we also seen Norm go up a little notch again from his own personal effort and commitment to improve and the management of his minutes have been 10x worse than JV's.

    Valanciunas really hasn't evolved much at all over the years, that's HIS fault not Casey's minutes.
    Ah ok my bad I think I misunderstood what point you were making.

    The thing is Casey has actually given JV minutes right from the get go. He was a day 1 starter, even DeMar had to come off the bench for a bit with Belinelli ahead of him. And Casey was singing his praises after that 2011 draft for over a year. It does seem like JV kinda just gets all the blame shifted onto the coaching staff or organization. He bulked up incorrectly supposedly because the team messed up, but there are other players who bulked up (like DeMar for example, or if you want a center example look at Kanter) but actually added mostly muscle, stayed lean and retained mobility while increasing explosiveness. And looking at his offensive game he doesn't really seem to have added much there either. Hasn't improved as a passer, still very reluctant to shoot from outside even though he started with an excellent touch and even his post game is still very rudimentary.

    He actually peaked I think in his 3rd year, and overall hasn't really improved a ton since he first entered the league. He's a good player just not a great one.

    And you're right, it's on the player to raise their game. I mean as an NBA player you're selling a product to coaches, teams, fans, sponsors, etc and that product is primarily your basketball ability. You should be striving to improve that ability as much as possible in order to make yourself a higher valued commodity.

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    Quote Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    Ah ok my bad I think I misunderstood what point you were making.

    The thing is Casey has actually given JV minutes right from the get go. He was a day 1 starter, even DeMar had to come off the bench for a bit with Belinelli ahead of him. And Casey was singing his praises after that 2011 draft for over a year. It does seem like JV kinda just gets all the blame shifted onto the coaching staff or organization. He bulked up incorrectly supposedly because the team messed up, but there are other players who bulked up (like DeMar for example, or if you want a center example look at Kanter) but actually added mostly muscle, stayed lean and retained mobility while increasing explosiveness. And looking at his offensive game he doesn't really seem to have added much there either. Hasn't improved as a passer, still very reluctant to shoot from outside even though he started with an excellent touch and even his post game is still very rudimentary.

    He actually peaked I think in his 3rd year, and overall hasn't really improved a ton since he first entered the league. He's a good player just not a great one.

    And you're right, it's on the player to raise their game. I mean as an NBA player you're selling a product to coaches, teams, fans, sponsors, etc and that product is primarily your basketball ability. You should be striving to improve that ability as much as possible in order to make yourself a higher valued commodity.
    DeMar started from game one. He lost his starting spot for the final 12 games of year one.

    Frankly, I don't see the need to parcel blame. He's a solid starting C. He might be more, and we won't know because the team has found success with him being this version of himself, so there's no need to funnel usage through him like they did with DeMar to see if he could handle it.

    The player and team mishandled his bulking, there's plenty of room for blame on both sides. Hopefully he continues to improve his quickness and awareness with experience.

    As for the other criticisms, expecting to see passing improvement from a big man in this system tells me more about the observer (who seems not to be observing much) than the player, and JV's hesitance to shoot from outside probably has something to do with his role card only saying defence and rebounding on it. But he's developing some confidence there as well, and we should see that continue to improve. Which is good, it will only help the team, which is all I'm looking for.

  3. #11183
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    DeMar started from game one. He lost his starting spot for the final 12 games of year one.

    Frankly, I don't see the need to parcel blame. He's a solid starting C. He might be more, and we won't know because the team has found success with him being this version of himself, so there's no need to funnel usage through him like they did with DeMar to see if he could handle it.

    The player and team mishandled his bulking, there's plenty of room for blame on both sides. Hopefully he continues to improve his quickness and awareness with experience.

    As for the other criticisms, expecting to see passing improvement from a big man in this system tells me more about the observer (who seems not to be observing much) than the player, and JV's hesitance to shoot from outside probably has something to do with his role card only saying defence and rebounding on it. But he's developing some confidence there as well, and we should see that continue to improve. Which is good, it will only help the team, which is all I'm looking for.
    This is just patently untrue. Even Amir was allowed to take threes from time to time under Casey. If JV had the confidence and ability to take that shot he'd be doing so. Casey has even stressed how he wants JV to extend his range and take more jumpshots. This comment is utter nonsense man. Him being able to shoot would make him even more valuable as the 3rd or 4th option that he is as an outlet not just for pick and roll but also for pick and pop or spot up plays as well. It'd also help us space the floor even better.

    There is no way they are telling him not to shoot jumpshots if he can fucking make them, that assertion is absurd.

    “That’s the next evolution of centers,” Casey said. “Guys migrate out there. Lucas (Nogueira) is migrating out there and JV is migrating out there and I think that’s going to be the new wave. Ibaka is knocking down shots (from three-point range), so that’s the new thing in the NBA now.”

    “We’re practicing,” Valanciunas told Pro Bball Report about his three-point shooting in the pregame warm-up. “Practicing to add this to my game. This is something new. Probably coach Nurse can talk about this more. Just slowly getting that developed, slowly getting that in my game.
    http://probballreport.com/raptors-jo...-3-point-shot/

    Just one of several quotes on this subject.

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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    ...he's developing some confidence there as well, and we should see that continue to improve. Which is good, it will only help the team, which is all I'm looking for.
    Wasn't there some video early this off season of him working on his outside shot? The writing is certainly on the wall about the need for it. He seemed to start taking more shots from extended range at the end of last season. Hopefully his role card allows him to take some without an immediate jerk to the bench if he misses.

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    Quote Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    This is just patently untrue. Even Amir was allowed to take threes from time to time under Casey. If JV had the confidence and ability to take that shot he'd be doing so. Casey has even stressed how he wants JV to extend his range and take more jumpshots. This comment is utter nonsense man. Him being able to shoot would make him even more valuable as the 3rd or 4th option that he is as an outlet not just for pick and roll but also for pick and pop or spot up plays as well. It'd also help us space the floor even better.

    There is no way they are telling him not to shoot jumpshots if he can fucking make them, that assertion is absurd.



    http://probballreport.com/raptors-jo...-3-point-shot/

    Just one of several quotes on this subject.
    Yes, and Nogueira really jacked them up out there, didn't he? With his 0.4 3PA/36, only higher than Siakam, JV himself, and Poeltl. Maybe he suffers from the same insecurity in his shot that has nothing at all to do with what the coaches are telling the big men their role is.

    The coaching staff has said that it's his next step - that is, that he hasn't made it yet. Never mind that they are explicitly talking about 3 point shots to space the floor, not midrange shots.

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    Quote Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    This is just patently untrue. Even Amir was allowed to take threes from time to time under Casey. If JV had the confidence and ability to take that shot he'd be doing so. Casey has even stressed how he wants JV to extend his range and take more jumpshots. This comment is utter nonsense man. Him being able to shoot would make him even more valuable as the 3rd or 4th option that he is as an outlet not just for pick and roll but also for pick and pop or spot up plays as well. It'd also help us space the floor even better.

    There is no way they are telling him not to shoot jumpshots if he can fucking make them, that assertion is absurd.



    http://probballreport.com/raptors-jo...-3-point-shot/

    Just one of several quotes on this subject.
    Uh, and then there's this.....

    "If your big guys don't dominate, you have to go small," Casey told ESPN's Zach Lowe. "I tell Jonas (Valanciunas): 'Oh, you want to play more? Then dominate. I don't want to see fadeaways over 6-8 guys. Get to the rim. Get every offensive rebound. If not, you're coming out.'"
    https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/12...e-s-coming-out

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  8. #11187
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    And there's all the times where Casey or whoever says they told JV he won't get the ball unless he posts up within x feet of the basket. (which he could definitely still improve on)

    As far as passing, he'll never be at the level of Jokic/M.Gasol or even Noah (very solid but not spectacular). Yep, he could be better passing on the roll and have better awareness on doubles but I agree that he's had little opportunity for growth in that area.

    No blame. Just the way the team and the team's success has worked itself out.
    Two beer away from being two beers away.

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Context, smaller players....

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Context, smaller players....

    Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
    Context... the NBA.

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Yeah he doesn't want to see fadeaways over smaller players, he wants him to be aggressive against them.

    This doesn't mean he's not allowed to shoot the ball. You can also shoot from outside and still be a very intimidating presence on both ends if you work hard at your game.

    Y'all try to act like we're holding back some elite talent. Talent shines through if you put in the work. It's not like JV doesn't get an opportunity when he's started almost every single game he's played in his career. Jokic was the BACKUP CENTER at the start of last season and was still able to seize an opportunity and showcase his abilities to the point that Denver traded the guy who previously started over him (Nurkic). If JV is really some star talent he'd put it on display, he's had more than enough opportunity.

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    Quote Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    Yeah he doesn't want to see fadeaways over smaller players, he wants him to be aggressive against them.

    This doesn't mean he's not allowed to shoot the ball. You can also shoot from outside and still be a very intimidating presence on both ends if you work hard at your game.

    Y'all try to act like we're holding back some elite talent. Talent shines through if you put in the work. It's not like JV doesn't get an opportunity when he's started almost every single game he's played in his career. Jokic was the BACKUP CENTER at the start of last season and was still able to seize an opportunity and showcase his abilities to the point that Denver traded the guy who previously started over him (Nurkic). If JV is really some star talent he'd put it on display, he's had more than enough opportunity.
    If this was true than James Johnson would have broken out as a Raptor. He goes to Miami and in one year becomes a core piece. Rudy Gay goes to Sacramento and his TS% jumps by 5.7%. Cory Joseph and DeMarre Carroll come to Toronto and their percentages drop.

    Coaching is important for bringing out the best in players. (side note: Jokic was not the backup to start the season. https://www.basketball-reference.com.../gamelog/2017/ He asked to go to the bench because playing beside Nurkic wasn't working. Eventually they realized that he was better than Nurkic with their starters and sat Nurkic before trading him. Who then broke out with the Blazers because they committed to using him correctly.)

    JV has started but he was given a very narrowly-defined role, he wasn't played to his strengths, and he was/is pulled constantly even when he turns in good performances. He may not be elite but he is capable of more than he's shown and the main culprit has been coaching/development.

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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    If this was true than James Johnson would have broken out as a Raptor. He goes to Miami and in one year becomes a core piece. Rudy Gay goes to Sacramento and his TS% jumps by 5.7%. Cory Joseph and DeMarre Carroll come to Toronto and their percentages drop.

    Coaching is important for bringing out the best in players. (side note: Jokic was not the backup to start the season. https://www.basketball-reference.com.../gamelog/2017/ He asked to go to the bench because playing beside Nurkic wasn't working. Eventually they realized that he was better than Nurkic with their starters and sat Nurkic before trading him. Who then broke out with the Blazers because they committed to using him correctly.)

    JV has started but he was given a very narrowly-defined role, he wasn't played to his strengths, and he was/is pulled constantly even when he turns in good performances. He may not be elite but he is capable of more than he's shown and the main culprit has been coaching/development.
    I get what your point but to play devils advocate:
    Rudy Gay and James Johnson left for teams that didn't make the playoffs. James Johnson's numbers exploded but so did his usage. JJ would never get his Miami usage on a good team.
    Demarre Carroll obviously struggled in TO but I think that has more to do with him than Casey. If he regains his Atlanta form I'll gladly eat my words.
    You're right about Corey jo.
    And...JV has struggled with his National team coach too. His challenges are not limited to just Dwayne Casey.

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  18. #11193
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    If this was true than James Johnson would have broken out as a Raptor. He goes to Miami and in one year becomes a core piece. Rudy Gay goes to Sacramento and his TS% jumps by 5.7%. Cory Joseph and DeMarre Carroll come to Toronto and their percentages drop.

    Coaching is important for bringing out the best in players. (side note: Jokic was not the backup to start the season. https://www.basketball-reference.com.../gamelog/2017/ He asked to go to the bench because playing beside Nurkic wasn't working. Eventually they realized that he was better than Nurkic with their starters and sat Nurkic before trading him. Who then broke out with the Blazers because they committed to using him correctly.)

    JV has started but he was given a very narrowly-defined role, he wasn't played to his strengths, and he was/is pulled constantly even when he turns in good performances. He may not be elite but he is capable of more than he's shown and the main culprit has been coaching/development.
    James Johnson deciding to lose n 30+ pounds has nothing to do with coaching. If it does than Casey should get credit for Lowry's body transformation. Rudy Gay it was obvious it jus wasn't a good fit with Deebo. Carroll is shit and was injured the whole time. Cory improved as a shooter under the raps. The reason JV sit cause he is too much of a liability to close out games. The other team knows they can get a good shot every single time they put him in PnR. When will JV ever be held accountable for his own career?

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  20. #11194
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    JV is a stiff. Not bad.....but still, youve seem what he is.... he's a decent center, good enough to start, no place even close to an all star

    no biggie

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    Quote Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post
    I get what your point but to play devils advocate:
    Rudy Gay and James Johnson left for teams that didn't make the playoffs. James Johnson's numbers exploded but so did his usage. JJ would never get his Miami usage on a good team.
    Demarre Carroll obviously struggled in TO but I think that has more to do with him than Casey. If he regains his Atlanta form I'll gladly eat my words.
    You're right about Corey jo.
    And...JV has struggled with his National team coach too. His challenges are not limited to just Dwayne Casey.
    Sacramento didn't have anything close to a playoff roster, especially in the west. Miami was a hair away from making the playoffs. It wasn't just usage for JJ, compared to his seasons in Toronto his TS% was higher, his WS/48 was higher, his assist rate was 61% higher because he was allowed to make plays, and his defense (15th of 79 in DRPM) meant that he placed 8 of 79 power forwards in RPM last season. He was 54th of 72 the season prior in Toronto.

    With a new national coach in Dainius Adomaitis, JV's bounced back 16/12 with 4 double-doubles in 27mpg and second in "efficiency" among all players.
    http://www.fiba.basketball/eurobasket/2017/playerstats

    But it all sort of fits together. We're last in assist rate in the league. We don't make things easier for our guys. The evidence is there quantitatively, and qualitatively you've heard the same refrain from the guys who've left (even before they left).

    Ultimately though we can't say with certainty either way how big the impact coaching was on Jonas until we either have a new coach or he gets shipped somewhere else. And I think he will get shipped, because I am 99% certain he won't opt in to his final year, and by next summer he'll be a de facto expiring with only one guaranteed year left on the books.

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  23. #11196
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    Hilarious that JV has become our most debated player. Reminds me of a certain someone. How old is he again?

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    James Johnson deciding to lose n 30+ pounds has nothing to do with coaching. If it does than Casey should get credit for Lowry's body transformation. Rudy Gay it was obvious it jus wasn't a good fit with Deebo. Carroll is shit and was injured the whole time. Cory improved as a shooter under the raps. The reason JV sit cause he is too much of a liability to close out games. The other team knows they can get a good shot every single time they put him in PnR. When will JV ever be held accountable for his own career?

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    Yep just conveniently left that out. He transformed his body and it paid major dividends. Maybe JV should think about doing that.

    It's amazing how every problem with JV is somehow pinned on someone else.

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    Quote Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    Yep just conveniently left that out. He transformed his body and it paid major dividends. Maybe JV should think about doing that.

    It's amazing how every problem with JV is somehow pinned on someone else.
    True, JJ blames himself, but he also gives a ton of credit to the Heat coaching staff, who has repeatedly helped players improve their bodies. Whereas, the Raptor coaching staff is starting to gain a bit of checkered history making guys bulk up (while losing agility & explosiveness) and handling injuries the wrong way.

    “It has a lot to do with the player, but all the compliments and all the rewards should go to the Forans,” Johnson said.

    That’s Heat strength and conditioning coach Bill Foran, and his son and assistant strength and conditioning coach Eric Foran. Even though Johnson will be an unrestricted free agent this summer with a big pay raise expected to come his way, he plans on keeping the Forans close by as he works to keep from putting weight back on in the off-season.

    “I don’t think I’m going to leave Eric Foran or Bill Foran’s side during the summer,” Johnson said with a smile. “I don’t think this is it for me. I still feel I have a long way to go and I want to get there body wise. I think the game will follow.
    http://heatzone.blog.palmbeachpost.c...success-story/

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    True, JJ blames himself, but he also gives a ton of credit to the Heat coaching staff, who has repeatedly helped players improve their bodies. Whereas, the Raptor coaching staff is starting to gain a bit of checkered history making guys bulk up (while losing agility & explosiveness) and handling injuries the wrong way.



    http://heatzone.blog.palmbeachpost.c...success-story/
    I think its a great story for JJ. However, players like Demar and Lowry have taken it upon themselves to improve their body and they play for the Raptors.

    I'm trying to get your point here.....so it IS on the player or no? It seems like you're double talking to me.

    It also suits your narrative to throw a couple shots at the Raptors coaching staff in the process.....

    I think its better to hold a player accountable for what he puts into his body and how he treats his body. The coaching staff and trainers are there to HELP, but in the end, that doesn't mean that the player is actually following their recommendations correctly.

    Sometimes players needs to do whats best for them. Sometimes it becomes apparent whats required, but it is up to the player to actually work on their shortcomings.

    With regards to JV, he needs to work on the following:

    - work on his mobility
    - work on increasing his range
    - work on decision making to become a better passer and to better handle double teams

    If he can work on these things, he will be a better player, whether its on the Raptors or elsewhere.

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I think its a great story for JJ. However, players like Demar and Lowry have taken it upon themselves to improve their body and they play for the Raptors.

    I'm trying to get your point here.....so it IS on the player or no? It seems like you're double talking to me.

    It also suits your narrative to throw a couple shots at the Raptors coaching staff in the process.....

    I think its better to hold a player accountable for what he puts into his body and how he treats his body. The coaching staff and trainers are there to HELP, but in the end, that doesn't mean that the player is actually following their recommendations correctly.

    Sometimes players needs to do whats best for them. Sometimes it becomes apparent whats required, but it is up to the player to actually work on their shortcomings.

    With regards to JV, he needs to work on the following:

    - work on his mobility
    - work on increasing his range
    - work on decision making to become a better passer and to better handle double teams

    If he can work on these things, he will be a better player, whether its on the Raptors or elsewhere.
    I think it's both the player and the team, especially in the case of JJ who bulked up to play the PF position, after DeMarre Carroll was brought as the starting SF. Similar situation to Rudy Gay bulking up from SF to PF. So in both cases, you have to take the context of role that the player was asked to do into account.

    Seen primarily as a power forward who could move to centre in some small lineups, Johnson is behind Luis Scola and Patrick Patterson for the former with Anthony Bennett also in the mix, and Jonas Valanciunas and Bismack Biyombo in the latter.


    https://www.thestar.com/sports/rapto...o-survive.html

    There is a slight change in store for Johnson this year. A year ago, he saw time at both small forward and power forward. This year he will only see time at the four, something Casey feels is best for Johnson and good for the team.

    “It’s kind of the way the league is going,” Casey said. “And I think for James it’s easier to produce in one position than to try and flip flop him back and forth. We have a need at that position too.”
    http://www.torontosun.com/2015/10/08...o-playing-time

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