Everything Valanciunas

[lewro]

Let's see how it plays out but I'm seeing a lot of ibaka 5, pat 4 in my mind.
I think the best thing for jv is 2nd unit without DD. Whether he plays 20 or 30mins, he's gotta be used on O. Otherwise, we can get rebs and screens + D from bogut and save $15m for pat. Lots of jv vs bebe arguments but pat means more to this team, even if jv is the better player.
Not to mention yak. He's not gonna be developed into hibbert. He projects as a better two way player, with more vision. He might be ready next yr.
Playoffs is still best argument for jv. Let's see...

[hotfuzz]

Crossposting from the Lowe post podcast thread. Very interesting stuff:

Lots of Raps talk on the new Lowe post podcast.

http://cdn16.castfire.com/audio/303/...6src%3Ddesktop

-Lowe: Raps have no shot at 2nd seed
-FINALLY got off the pot and made a deal
-loves Ibaka trade, thinks it'll be even better for us than on paper
-Ibaka did not seem motivated in Orlando
-there is value in not playing bad players, which Patterson injury has forced us to do (Sullinger is out of shape disaster)
-interesting discussion about the value of all-offense, no-defense low post players like Monroe, Vucevic, and... Valanciunas (sometimes okay on D)
-Lowe is less convinced than ever that a defensive stretch 4 can be paired with plodding center, because the 4 is chasing his man on the perimeter, negating shotblocking benefits
-Ibaka + Jonas interesting test case, because our payroll will be huge
-believes we will have to cut salary to avoid tax bill
-Beck: Valanciunas joins pool of essentially unmovable players. Talked to an exec, there is a glut of big men like Monroe, Brook Lopez, all-o, no-d guys, Nets may not even get one first rounder for Lopez
-if you lined up all the all-o/no-d guys like Monroe, Jefferson, Okafor vs all-d/no-o guys like Gobert, Noel etc, execs choose later every time
-Lowe: league is skeptical Raps can dump Carroll without compensation

Interesting that the perception of Jonas seems now squarely in that Monroe/Vucevic group. We may really have missed the boat on getting full value for him, barring some kind of reversal in Casey's playing time/usage of him or a monster playoff run.

I would be perfectly fine with moving JV for a good package now that Ibaka is here. It's not like he plays enough minutes anyways..

[LJ2]

I see what Zach Lowe's saying about all-O no-D centre's, I don't agree with him in lumping Jonas in a group with the likes of Greg Monroe and Al Jefferson, Jonas is just flat out better than those guys.

It's important not to overreact. The days of playing a guy like Jonas 35 mpg will never come back, that doesn't mean he can't be a tremendous help to your team for 25-30 mpg especially given particular matchups.

Case in point - these rangey, all-D no-O I guys everyone is in love with like Gobert and Whiteside are exactly the types of guys Jonas is the perfect counterpunch for. They don't have the range to pull him away from the basket so he can stay at home, all he has to do is disrupt their lobs. On the other end they have to stick to him, they can't roam and provide the mobile, shot blocking help defence that everyone loves them for because they have to guard Jonas in the post. And Jonas can put pressure on them in the post and put them in foul trouble (this happened last Utah game vs Gobert) in a way that very few C's can and no other C on the Raptors roster can. This is why Jonas looked so good vs Evan Turner and Whiteside last spring. Whiteside would be a huge pain in the ass matched up against anyone on this roster other than Jonas, JV is the one guy who can go at him hard.

Having the option of JV lineups and Ibaka/PP lineups is the best of both worlds. Jonas isn't underused and he isn't a relic. In today's NBA, 25-30 mpg is probably what he can expect for the rest of his career no matter who's his coach.

I agree about the minutes JV can expect going forward. Good point about his value against C's that can't stretch the floor, however I think the team would prefer if he in turn could pull them out of the post to give the guards more freedom/room to penetrate. Hoping JV works on his jumper this summer. If he be consistent with a mid range jumper then the he really nullifies Whiteside/Gobert etc. shot blocking.

[Raptor Jesus]

I see what Zach Lowe's saying about all-O no-D centre's, I don't agree with him in lumping Jonas in a group with the likes of Greg Monroe and Al Jefferson, Jonas is just flat out better than those guys.

It's important not to overreact. The days of playing a guy like Jonas 35 mpg will never come back, that doesn't mean he can't be a tremendous help to your team for 25-30 mpg especially given particular matchups.

Case in point - these rangey, all-D no-O I guys everyone is in love with like Gobert and Whiteside are exactly the types of guys Jonas is the perfect counterpunch for. They don't have the range to pull him away from the basket so he can stay at home, all he has to do is disrupt their lobs. On the other end they have to stick to him, they can't roam and provide the mobile, shot blocking help defence that everyone loves them for because they have to guard Jonas in the post. And Jonas can put pressure on them in the post and put them in foul trouble (this happened last Utah game vs Gobert) in a way that very few C's can and no other C on the Raptors roster can. This is why Jonas looked so good vs Evan Turner and Whiteside last spring. Whiteside would be a huge pain in the ass matched up against anyone on this roster other than Jonas, JV is the one guy who can go at him hard.

Having the option of JV lineups and Ibaka/PP lineups is the best of both worlds. Jonas isn't underused and he isn't a relic. In today's NBA, 25-30 mpg is probably what he can expect for the rest of his career no matter who's his coach.

As LJ2 said, lots to agree with here S.R. JV can be a weapon to fight other B list Defence first centres. The problem is the 1-5 pnr or having to tag slashers. JV can't or hasn't been able to step up on the guard to dissuade the pull up jumper or slow 2/3 that slashes or screen cuts to the corner. The issue isn't that he loses his man but if you get a top tier guard hot on a 2 or 3 plays now its a tired guards job to shut down Kyrie or Kemba or IT.

That isn't to blame JV or call out the Defensive system, there's much easier ways to call out the system (high hedge), but it does show a limitation and a shift in offensive gameplay that seems NBA wide at this point.

Another key and a potential counter that he's showing is stretching his jimmy's range. I don't ever want to see him hit a 3 but the 15 footer is pulling a Gobert or Jordan or Amir away from the basket enough to open lanes to the bucket. The downside is the opposing Coach immediately going small and JV's inability to make them pay for it.

I want JV to succeed, moreover I hope being paired with Ibaka and PP again will fill some of the gap in the first 3 quarters. He may ultimately be our third best big in the 4th.

[slamdunk23]

This is way of an overreaction but after watching Jakob play yesterday, I think that if the raptors need to cut salary this offseason JV will be the most logical player to be traded.

[Jangles]

A lot of these posts indicate to me that some may be forgeting that Dwane fricking Casey is coaching this team. I will eat a shoe and IBO will drink his piss if JV finishes these last 25 games averaging 25-30 mins per game.



**Disclaimer: I will not be eating my shoe.**

[Chr1s1anL]

Funny I've been saying all this stuff about JV for two years. I only took one podcast from Lowe to make you guys see the light on how the game is changing for bigs that can't guard the perimeter.

Anyways better late than never.

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[KeonClark]

Funny I've been saying all this stuff about JV for two years. I only took one podcast from Lowe to make you guys see the light on how the game is changing for bigs that can't guard the perimeter.

Anyways better late than never.

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Thank you for showing us the ways oh wise one

[DogeLover1234]

Funny I've been saying all this stuff about JV for two years. I only took one podcast from Lowe to make you guys see the light on how the game is changing for bigs that can't guard the perimeter.

Anyways better late than never.

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Yeah lets give up on a hyper efficient, then 22 year old, because he can't defend Steph Curry.

Seriously though, it's not that JV can't defend the perimeter but more about PnR and rim defense. In fact, I don't think Lowe mentioned perimeter defense, he was referring to paint defense. Gobert, Jordon etc are elite defensive centers because they can impact every possession at the rim, their skills are wasted on the perimeter. It would be silly to give up on a center because at 22 he was a bad defender and still pretty silly to give up now, considering he has shown flashes and just got on his second deal. This isn't to say there aren't better options, but realistically you aren't getting a good deal in a JV trade and there aren't of lot of good defensive centers available.

[Jangles]

Thank you for showing us the ways oh wise one

I wonder if perimeter players need to be able to defend the perimeter as well?

[lewro]

Funny I've been saying all this stuff about JV for two years. I only took one podcast from Lowe to make you guys see the light on how the game is changing for bigs that can't guard the perimeter.

Anyways better late than never.

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Not sure Zach Lowe has been thinking this for two years so maybe send your CV?

Just listened to raps hq pod. They touched on $15m for pat or jv. Pats been more important imo all yr. Plenty of time to eval performance and guage the market.

Deadline feels rushed but just for fun:

Bogut + Anderson + 2nd Rd pick swap

For jv + fvv

Anderson is 230lbs but can't shoot. He's got D potential. The 2nd in the 30s is not much worse than the clips 1st in this draft. We could maybe snag Evans and trade cory or package Cory + both picks to move up.

[lewro]

Edit jv + fvv + 2nd Rd pick swap.

[lewro]

Yeah lets give up on a hyper efficient, then 22 year old, because he can't defend Steph Curry.

Seriously though, it's not that JV can't defend the perimeter but more about PnR and rim defense. In fact, I don't think Lowe mentioned perimeter defense, he was referring to paint defense. Gobert, Jordon etc are elite defensive centers because they can impact every possession at the rim, their skills are wasted on the perimeter. It would be silly to give up on a center because at 22 he was a bad defender and still pretty silly to give up now, considering he has shown flashes and just got on his second deal. This isn't to say there aren't better options, but realistically you aren't getting a good deal in a JV trade and there aren't of lot of good defensive centers available.

Yeah, you're not getting a good deal in a vacuum but it might be a better use of the cap and fit on the roster. It would be rash to pull the trigger before the deadline but there are big decisions in the summer.

[DanH]

Pat/JV are both really important to the team and the team's best path forward IMO would be to consolidate as much talent up front as possible, as we know that the ball handling and primary scoring will always fall to Lowry and DD in the backcourt. So the other PGs and wings just need to be able to shoot and defend, and create occasionally. Cue Powell and Wright. Meanwhile, we've seen how critical having a good threat on the roll is to the offence, and how crucial a floor spacing defensive PF like Pat and Ibaka is on both ends. Invest there, lean on the all stars in the back court, and fill in the rest of the gaps cheaply.

Backup C who will get limited minutes due to Ibaka/Pat lineups? Poeltl, locked in for a few years. So trade BeBe for value or to grease a salary shedding deal before he is up for a raise in summer 2018. Backup and third string PG? Wright and Van Vleet combined make under 3M, both have looked good in short stints. Trade Cory to clear space. Powell has looked fantastic whenever he's played, and you have to expect Bruno to contribute eventually (and frankly Toupane deserves another call up) - nevermind the flexibility given by having Lowry play some minutes at the 2. So move Carroll for cap space. Powell makes the minimum next year then is RFA, and can play heavy minutes. Maybe find a bench 3+D wing coming back in one of those trades to bolster the reserves in the short term.

[white men can't jump]

It's hilarious that they bring up Gobert as an all-D guy in a conversation about JV. Guarantee you if we had Gobert trying to defend in space at the 3 pt line he would not look much, or maybe even any, better than JV.

JV is not Vuc or Monroe. Monroe can spend entire defensive possessions without even trying to move. Vuc is frequently lost and pretty soft.

JV just needs a situation where he's asked to stay closer to the rim...you know like the D we ran last year where he looked just fine. And we need to plan better for stopping the p'n'r game.

Anyone notice the contrast in coaching tactics last night? Other than some early breakdowns where we found JV on the roll, Charlotte had clearly schemed to limit his effectiveness inside. They knew it was a mismatch that could hurt them and planned to stop it. JV couldnt get the ball in the post as they fronted with some zoning up to help behind him and deny the option. Their D covered the roller very well after those early breakdowns as well.

We come out knowing they'll attack with Kemba-Kaminsky in the high screen game. They'd clear the strong side and try to force us to defend it in a 2-man game, which is pretty fucking difficult, especially with a shooting big man. Like really, a big like Gobert would have the same struggles to help deny the drive/shot on thr ballhandler AND be able to recover on the roll/pop . We seemed to have no plan to counter this. Help was often late/non-existant. Things only got "better" with lineups that were basically, as usual, Casey throwing shit at the wall and hoping it would stick.

I almost wish we did have a different C just so people could see how little a difference it would make and how tactics are the key problem. For most of this "slump" for the team, it hasn't even been due to defensive slippage, but more on the terrible O side. We just play bad basketball.

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