View Poll Results: Grade Valanciunas' Season

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Thread: Everything Valanciunas

  1. #9941
    Raptors Republic All-Star big boi's Avatar
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    Quite a few times? No. Every NBA player has made a few good passes, even Biyombo. JV is not Biyombo bad, but a segment of the Toronto fanbase is the only people who think JV is a good passer and the only reason he doesn't show it off more is because of his coach and teammates.

    Here's Zach Lowe prior to last season



    The Warriors are the best team at passing and cutting. They have some very good passers and cut smartly. When it works it's a thing of beauty, but they also turn the ball over quite often, because it's hard to hit cutters through long armed NBA defenders no matter how good your passing skills.

    I don't criticize JV, because he brings some real offensive assets - ferocious rebounder, soft touch at the rim, good post scorer, great screen setter and the range on his jump shot has constantly improved. But this fanbase fantasy about his passing is exactly that. If anyone can find any outside observer that disagrees, feel free to post,
    I'll feel free to post regardless

    Developing a good post offence (even as a 3rd option) is something that requires commitment. And not just from JV.

    It requires that the offence be set up to pass in to the post. JV posted up on the weak side, probably best by either Lowry, Ross or even Patterson. So that there is a viable 3 point threat if the passer's check doubles JV. If JV is on the strong side, the 3rd player needs to move to the other side to remove the easy double. DD would have to be willing to rotate to the strong side to isolate JV.

    Now sure, if we work on this, is it going to take some practice for JV to read the double and pass out of it? Absolutely. Will there be hiccups, frustration and faces in palms? Yes.
    But shouldn't we work on that now rather than hope JV can somehow come out of nowhere again in the playoffs and that somehow our guards and wings will know how to pass in to the post and move, even thought it's something they haven't run all year.

    And it's something we should want to do. Develop a bonafide 3rd option and create ball movement. The more JV is a threat inside and commands the double, the more KL, DD, PP and TR are open.

    Said it tons of times before, its a cliche but it's true. Bigs take time. Particularly bigs that can't just rely on freak athletic ability early on.

    Learning how to read defences and pass out of the double to feed the open man is one of the most difficult skills for a big man. I'd at least like to see a raptors team determined to practice it before I'm willing to throw my hands up and say JV is bad at passing from the post. I've seen him do it. But I very rarely see A determination to post JV up and run an offence with that as the goals. And as a post man, if you only see a few passes a game, good chance you're going up with it. Pretty sure that applies to any other top 6-7 guy in the rotation with limited touches.

  2. Like Just Is, golden liked this post
  3. #9942
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    Quote big boi wrote: View Post
    I'll feel free to post regardless

    Developing a good post offence (even as a 3rd option) is something that requires commitment. And not just from JV.

    It requires that the offence be set up to pass in to the post. JV posted up on the weak side, probably best by either Lowry, Ross or even Patterson. So that there is a viable 3 point threat if the passer's check doubles JV. If JV is on the strong side, the 3rd player needs to move to the other side to remove the easy double. DD would have to be willing to rotate to the strong side to isolate JV.

    Now sure, if we work on this, is it going to take some practice for JV to read the double and pass out of it? Absolutely. Will there be hiccups, frustration and faces in palms? Yes.
    But shouldn't we work on that now rather than hope JV can somehow come out of nowhere again in the playoffs and that somehow our guards and wings will know how to pass in to the post and move, even thought it's something they haven't run all year.

    And it's something we should want to do. Develop a bonafide 3rd option and create ball movement. The more JV is a threat inside and commands the double, the more KL, DD, PP and TR are open.

    Said it tons of times before, its a cliche but it's true. Bigs take time. Particularly bigs that can't just rely on freak athletic ability early on.

    Learning how to read defences and pass out of the double to feed the open man is one of the most difficult skills for a big man. I'd at least like to see a raptors team determined to practice it before I'm willing to throw my hands up and say JV is bad at passing from the post. I've seen him do it. But I very rarely see A determination to post JV up and run an offence with that as the goals. And as a post man, if you only see a few passes a game, good chance you're going up with it. Pretty sure that applies to any other top 6-7 guy in the rotation with limited touches.
    In an alternate universe, where JV joins the Raptors in 2009 and DeRozan joins as a rookie in 2012, this is a scenario that possibly happens.

    It goes to show the importance of timing and opportunity. Raps have designed an entire offense to take advantage of DeMar's unique strengths on offense, minimizing his weaknesses on both offense (3-pt shooting) and overall defense. They've developed DeMar and the roster to work around him.

    In the alternate JV arrives first universe, the Raps develop a Grizzlie style big man offense around JV and DeMar is told to improve his 3&D game, as well as learning how to feed the post.
    Last edited by golden; Wed Jan 11th, 2017 at 12:50 PM.

  4. #9943
    Raptors Republic Veteran KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    In an alternate universe, where JV joins the Raptors in 2009 and DeRozan joins as a rookie in 2012, this is a scenario that possibly happens.

    It goes to show the importance of timing and opportunity. Raps have designed an entire offense to take advantage of DeMar's unique strengths on offense, minimizing his weaknesses on both offense (3-pt shooting) and overall defense. They've developed DeMar and the roster to work around him.

    In the alternate JV arrives first universe, the Raps develop a Grizzlie style big man offense around JV and DeMar is told to improve his 3&D game, as well as learning how to feeding the post.
    Ah yes, first come first serve. The foundation of any good community league kids basketball team. Wait..
    11/20/16 Lest we forget - The Sacramento Screw Job.
    We will not go quietly in the night. We will rage against the dying light. We will study every buzzer beater with intensified might, because somethin with the NBA doesn't smell right.

  5. #9944
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Yeah it was very reminiscent of the indy series. Didn't have a high usage, but still dominated. And he doesn't need 23 rebounds to stay on the floor. You just need to feel him. And they certainly did.
    Actually offensive rebounds factor into usage.

  6. #9945
    Raptors Republic Veteran KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote Lupe wrote: View Post
    Actually offensive rebounds factor into usage.
    I'm sure you were picking up what I was laying down
    11/20/16 Lest we forget - The Sacramento Screw Job.
    We will not go quietly in the night. We will rage against the dying light. We will study every buzzer beater with intensified might, because somethin with the NBA doesn't smell right.

  7. #9946
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    Quote Lupe wrote: View Post
    Actually offensive rebounds factor into usage.
    Directly, they really don't. Putback shot attempts off of them do.

    Still, the point stands - even with his putback attempts, he had a usage of only 23% in the Indiana series, and under 20% in the MIA series before that third game where they just let him loose (he was posting a 37% usage for that game until he got hurt).

  8. #9947
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    In an alternate universe, where JV joins the Raptors in 2009 and DeRozan joins as a rookie in 2012, this is a scenario that possibly happens.

    It goes to show the importance of timing and opportunity. Raps have designed an entire offense to take advantage of DeMar's unique strengths on offense, minimizing his weaknesses on both offense (3-pt shooting) and overall defense. They've developed DeMar and the roster to work around him.

    In the alternate JV arrives first universe, the Raps develop a Grizzlie style big man offense around JV and DeMar is told to improve his 3&D game, as well as learning how to feed the post.
    This is of course assuming JV becomes the best passing bigman in the league and adds a reliable three point shot while being an All-NBA Defender with a DPOY trophy under his belt.

  9. #9948
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    If I'm JV I'm working hard on my three point shot and passing skills over the summer. You wanna stay o the court as a skilled offensive big who isn't good defensively? Acquire and advance yourself in as many skills as possible. The more multi-faceted of a threat you are the harder it is to justify taking off your offensive capabilities in favour of a better defender.

    People continually scoff at this but look at what the best offensive centers in the league are doing. Gasol, Cousins and even Brook Lopez all expanding their range and improving their passing ability (all three averaging career highs in 3PA, 3PM, 3P% and AST%). JV should get on that as well.

  10. #9949
    Raptors Republic Veteran tDotted's Avatar
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    Quote Lupe wrote: View Post
    This is of course assuming JV becomes the best passing bigman in the league and adds a reliable three point shot while being an All-NBA Defender with a DPOY trophy under his belt.
    What does the defense have to do with the offense being run?

    Quote Lupe wrote: View Post
    If I'm JV I'm working hard on my three point shot and passing skills over the summer. You wanna stay o the court as a skilled offensive big who isn't good defensively? Acquire and advance yourself in as many skills as possible. The more multi-faceted of a threat you are the harder it is to justify taking off your offensive capabilities in favour of a better defender.

    People continually scoff at this but look at what the best offensive centers in the league are doing. Gasol, Cousins and even Brook Lopez all expanding their range and improving their passing ability (all three averaging career highs in 3PA, 3PM, 3P% and AST%). JV should get on that as well.
    He's super efficient in the post (one of the best in the league on a yearly basis). Why take him away from there? Also their teams are all severely lacking reliable 3 point shooters. The Raptors are 2nd in the league in 3pt%.

  11. #9950
    Raptors Republic Superstar SkywalkerAC's Avatar
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    I do think passing/playmaking improvement will go a long way to keep him on the court. Bebe's passing is a big part of what's getting him minutes, even at power forward (it's not like it's his outside shooting).

  12. #9951
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    I do think passing/playmaking improvement will go a long way to keep him on the court. Bebe's passing is a big part of what's getting him minutes, even at power forward (it's not like it's his outside shooting).
    If Bebe's passing has anything to do with him getting minutes that's stupid, because he's mostly just swinging it to the open man in the corner, and he is pretty much completely useless offensively beyond that and dunking. He isn't exactly making difficult passes, it's just when he catches it 6-8 ft from the basket he is unable to accomplish anything beyond that same pass to the corner, which has become his default "move" catching it in the paint. It's a nightmare from a scouting perspective.

    *Seriously, someone on the staff needs to be forcing this kid to take like 2000 floaters/baby hooks a day from that spot so that he's not completely predictable when he catches it there.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Jan 11th, 2017 at 06:35 PM.

  13. #9952
    Raptors Republic Superstar S.R.'s Avatar
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    Let's be real - the Raptors' complete lack of frontcourt depth + Sully's injury are what's getting Bebe this many minutes.

  14. #9953
    Raptors Republic Superstar 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    This is real - Bebe has the best DRTG, the best DBPM and the best DRPM for rotation players on the team.
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

  15. #9954
    Raptors Republic Superstar Just Is's Avatar
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    Yeah; I think people are both over and underrating Bebe.

    I was on the Bebe bandwagon from last year after watching him closely with the 905. He`s somewhere in the middle of those extremes.
    "My biggest concern as a coach is to not confuse winning with progress." - Steve Kerr
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  16. #9955
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    This is real - Bebe has the best DRTG, the best DBPM and the best DRPM for rotation players on the team.
    I honestly think people forget how bad Biz was for a while last season. Dude couldn't catch a pass for most of the year, couldn't hit free throws and didn't put up great numbers defensively. His peak maybe looked better cause he could play with a lot of energy (see playoffs) but when his energy wasn't there he wasn't good. Bebe has some skills.

    EDIT: Not to say he doesn't also have a lot of flaws, he is still a young backup big lol

  17. #9956
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    Quote Lupe wrote: View Post
    This is of course assuming JV becomes the best passing bigman in the league and adds a reliable three point shot while being an All-NBA Defender with a DPOY trophy under his belt.
    It's kind of ironic that: passing, 3-pt shooting and defending are exactly the weaknesses of DeMar that the Raps have accepted and built around. You alley-ooped that nicely to prove the point, since you thought I was referring to Marc Gasol. lol.

  18. #9957
    Raptors Republic Superstar 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Quote Just Is wrote: View Post
    Yeah; I think people are both over and underrating Bebe.

    I was on the Bebe bandwagon from last year after watching him closely with the 905. He`s somewhere in the middle of those extremes.
    I just posted some facts, If I had been asked without knowing those, I wouldn't have guessed he's done so well just by watching him play. I'm sure there's small sample size noise in there, but I'm also sure I'm missing something just watching the games.
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

  19. #9958
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    I just posted some facts, If I had been asked without knowing those, I wouldn't have guessed he's done so well just by watching him play. I'm sure there's small sample size noise in there, but I'm also sure I'm missing something just watching the games.
    Bebe has zero offense other than the ability to catch lobs, but his length disrupts shit in the paint. He's very foul prone but he's our best defending 7 footer by a fairly wide margin. It's just...

    "That length!"
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  20. #9959
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer TRex's Avatar
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    Quote lupe wrote: View Post
    jv's too savage lol



    2:06: "they're racing for the 2nd place, we're racing for the 1st"

    don't kill em jonas!
    lol!

  21. #9960
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    Quote Lupe wrote: View Post
    JV's too savage lol



    2:06: "They're racing for the 2nd place, we're racing for the 1st"

    Don't kill em Jonas!
    Haha. This is funny. Although I don't think he actually meant it. He just said the truth. We're racing for the 1st place. Fuck off, Boston. Eat leftovers tomorrow. (finger)
    Last edited by rocwell; Wed Jan 11th, 2017 at 10:55 PM.

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