Your opinion of the NBA

[Bendit]

Source


Excellent article. While we may disagree who is being the aggressor, I think we all agree both sides are being petty and acting like children.

If this is in large part a pr battle for the hearts and minds of the fans I am frankly amazed why neither side has proposed even a meagre decrease in the price of tickets (need not be the most exp. seats) as a gesture of some understanding that in many cities the price of tickets has bypassed many. With the players clearly being made to look like the "bad guys" their union leaders should be all over this gesture.

[mcHAPPY]

If this is in large part a pr battle for the hearts and minds of the fans I am frankly amazed why neither side has proposed even a meagre decrease in the price of tickets (need not be the most exp. seats) as a gesture of some understanding that in many cities the price of tickets has bypassed many. With the players clearly being made to look like the "bad guys" their union leaders should be all over this gesture.

I think that is a course of action that will be taken once an agreement is made.

[Apollo]

Apollo, I think you make an excellent point. I think most people are not looking at the Raptors best interest when it comes to what could happen with the league in the new CBA.

Yes, I think it's senseless to take sides with that spoiled lot of egotistical players who in this new age would turn their back on you, the fans, the first minute it looks like they're going to have to go through the adversity of a rebuild or if they feel they're on a small market team who can't spend with the big boys. You know it's funny that a lot of the big, new young stars are all trying to get to the teams who in some cases can spend twice the cap and then they'll turn around and think you're stupid enough to believe them when they tell you that money has nothing to do with winning in the NBA. The players are in this solely for the money and care nothing about making the system more fair and rewarding to those who allow them live lavish lives. The owners are naturally looking out for their own interests but at least they're providing many answers to the fans in terms of making this league a system where any team has a shot at winning instead of just the guys fortunate enough to do business in cities with massive populations. If the Owners say they're losing money I have no reason to not believe them as many, many, many businesses in America are losing money... Many American businesses have sunk. Many others have moved to China. America is reeling, has no view of the light, unemployment is over 20%, 40 million people are on food stamps, inflation is rising, the USD value is falling and recently the league had to take out a $200M loan from J.P. Morgan so that half the teams could pay for their operating costs. The players, who get their money before operation expenses are paid, have the nerve to sit there and say that 50% of over a $4B business is not fair. The players have the nerve to shoot down some of the best things that could ever happen to the NBA for the fans and call them "blood issues". I think more and more fans are going to wise up. I guarantee you that the 40 million people on food stamps aren't crying a river about how over $2B isn't enough for 400 guys who were blessed with being tall and who can play a game well. When this is all said and done the league will have maybe lost a season but will definitely have lost some fan support but I don't think their distaste will be towards a shiny Raptors claw logo or some guy they hardly ever see who wears a suit and sits at a desk somewhere crunching numbers and going to meetings. No, the fans' distaste will be towards those who are in front of the camera always, the guys who spit at anything in the negotiations that would reward the fans. The guys who got games cancelled, if not the season cancelled because they essentially couldn't live off 7% less of their share in over four billion dollars.

- A way to prevent super teams from being created because star players want to join together. Toronto would never have a fighting chance with a system like this - especially if star players are the ones that will help you win the championship. This is tricky because you want to encourage players from testing free agency, and you can't stop players from talking to each other.. It really sucks that players would want to play with each other and "steal" a championship instead of wanting to do it the "right" way.

I think the easiest way to stop it would be to put a tariff on the contracts of players who are restricted free agents or have Bird rights held by a team. If that player leaves the team he can sign the same contract elsewhere if he wishes to do so but if he leaves, the tariff kicks in. This tariff would essentially be a league tax to his salary. The team he signs with still have to pay the full amount but it's then taxed before it reaches the player. Let's say 15-20%. That 15-20% is then given to the team who held his rights.

- A way for a team to help keep its free agent. So I would love to abolish the sign and trade, and to help teams have a chance to pay more to their own FA then someone else's. Perhaps create the franchise tag.

I also think S&T is bad, not as bad if my above comment was followed but for most of the league S&T has a negative impact. Its not helping anyone but the big markets at the end of the day. A franchise tag is a brilliant idea. It keeps players with their current team as long as it takes to sign a deal or find a suitable trade. The leverage once lost from the statement "trade me or I walk during free agency" suddenly becomes a fairy tale.

- Getting rid of the Mid-Level exception as that would prevent Bryan from signing players like Kapono. This is the kind of exception that can get your team screwed if your GM doesn't know what he's doing. By removing it completely it also hurts teams like Miami and NY from continuing to build on their 'super' teams (both teams are coincidentally in the Raptor's conference).

Yeah and not only Kapono because this is a problem leaguewide. What the MLE essentially does is jack up the price on average players who have no business earning $25M over five years. People can say "well, then the owners have no business giving it to them in that case". Easier said than done friends when a manager's current and long term career aspirations are connected directly to performance. Easier said than done when a team's performance has a direct and significant connection with gate attendance and other forms of revenue.

- If there is a hard cap, I'd like to see it on the higher end. The Raptors have money, and I'm sure MLSE (or whoever the new owner will be) will not have a problem spending money if it means creating a competitive team. I think the tax system that the owners are proposing is fine, as it would prevent teams with crazy money from spending, but if the cap is high enough, it can help a team like the Raptors want to spend money. Maybe a cap of something like $70-$75mil. Higher than it was in the old CBA, but not too high so teams like LA, Miami, Dallas etc can't just keep buying championships.

I personally think the cap should be set at around where it currently is but have it be a hard cap and any money that is not spent in player salaries but is still owed to the players is given to the union to distribute however they see fit. In such a system all teams should be able to hit that target if they need to to take a step forward or to maintain. Then all teams share equally in the cost of paying the rest of the money owed.

I did go on to comment on more of your post but somehow it was lost. Luckily I had saved half of my post in a notepad, like I usually do when I'm writing a long post. I must have deleted the other half when I went into edit a word...

Anyway, to summarize the rest of it:

• I don't think Bargnani's contract is bad.
• I'd much rather see guaranteed contracts removed and in this scenario contract length wouldn't need a limit to the number of years.
• I don't think there should be a age limit on players coming out of high school but I do understand the risk to the player and the team. The league sounds like it want to increase the age limit.
• I think the Amnesty clause is important to the product because helps the league as a whole get rid of dead weight. I'm thinking about all us fans, not just Raptors fans.
• I think the Raptors should get the option to use their TPE but I feel they could get a player at that level during free agency and for less cash.

[Brandon]

My opinion of the owners and of stern has gone down I guess, although I always thought they were rotters, most of them. The main issue here is revenue sharing, since there's practically none now, and almost all NFL revenue is shared nearly 50/50. Pete Rozelle got that done decades ago and Stern didn't, and that's the bottom line. Stern's presence is the problem. A stronger commissioner could get revenue sharing done and then come to an agreement with the union. Stern and the owners' manipulation of the PR to suggest this is all about the greedy players -- who have already agreed to take 53% instead of 57% -- makes them seem all the more morally bankrupt. But I already knew they were scumbags. Most of them got where they are, not from talent or initiative, but from buying off politicians and lining their pockets with taxpayer money. That was the problem with the Sonics, for example, Stern got rid of the owner because he wasn't robbing the taxpayers successfully enough, and gave the franchise to someone who could rob the taxpayers of another market.

[thatguythere]

Stern and the owners' manipulation of the PR to suggest this is all about the greedy players -- who have already agreed to take 53% instead of 57% -- makes them seem all the more morally bankrupt. But I already knew they were scumbags.

I couldn't agree more with this bit. Derek Fisher has even called Adam Silver a liar in a major press conference and there has been no response. Something like that is kind of a big deal and the non-response by anyone from the NBA leaves only one conclusion in my mind..... they are a bunch of liars.

[Apollo]

Liars about what? That's about as vague a post as you could have written that leaves the powerful word "liars" or your later statement "(insert profanity) liars" open to the imagination. If I'm mistaken then please by all means take the time to quote Derek Fisher but, if I heard it right yesterday, what you're referring to now is the Owners suggesting the players walked out on the meeting and then Derek Fisher came out later and said that the owners told the players to leave. Is this what you're talking about?

[thatguythere]

Liars about what? That's about as vague a post as you could have written that leaves the powerful word "liars" or your later statement "(insert profanity) liars" open to the imagination. If I'm mistaken then please by all means take the time to quote Derek Fisher but, if I heard it right yesterday, what you're referring to now is the Owners suggesting the players walked out on the meeting and then Derek Fisher came out later and said that the owners told the players to leave. Is this what you're talking about?

Adam Silver said:

"They made it clear that if our position was that we were unwilling to move beyond 50% there was nothing else to talk about, and that's when the discussions broke off today."
(I believe the key comment Fisher was referring to)


Derek Fisher said:

"You guys have been lied to."
and
"They're interested in telling you one sided stories that are not true"
and
"A couple of the comments we heard coming out of here a short time ago are just not true at all."

Well it certainly wasn't as confrontational as I was remembering it. Fisher only said we had been told lies but didn't name any names. I will agree this example doesn't account for how strongly I represented my opinion but my sentiments remain.

[j bean]

I agree with this. why are the superstars representing at these meetings? they're always going to make big money. it's th elittle guys that are losing in this lock out, they should be at the meetings

NBPA vice president Matt Bonner is no superstar and he has talked about losing the season if that is what it takes to get a fair deal for the players. I hope someone is keeping the fan and what is best for the game in mind.

[minks77]

This is an excellent point. They system needs to be at least modified to highly discourage players from bailing on their franchise and pulling what James and Bosh pulled. Now we here Howard is probably thinking he's going to pull the same crap on Orlando. I'm betting on Stern and the owners crushing this fad now... Somehow.

Neither LBJ nor Bosh did anything other than leave. They didn't "pull" anything, they played out their contracts and left when it was obvious that staying wasn't going so well. Would it have been better to come out and say "trade me cuz I'm leaving" ? In normal speak that's called a trade demand and we'd of all blasted them for that (same as we did to Vince).

As for my earlier list, as you read it remember that trades were much easier in a smaller, capless league. Also keep in mind that both Sir Chuck and Clyde asked for trades to a contender, Payton went ring chasing with LAL AND Miami, Bostons big 3 were assembled under a radically different system and I can go on.

The point is that the as much as we may not like the idea of players playing GM, they did it in a totally legit way, waiting to be FA's before walking away. If the suits in Toronto and Cleveland had built better teams around Chris and James they'd still have them.

Hell, if you guys wanna be pissed off at players screwing their teams over, look at Carmello. What he did to Denver was selfish, cowardly and reprehensible. Kobe started a mini trend when he refused to play for CHA and forced the LA trade, that was also worse.

[minks77]

got off track a bit but the point is that players have definitely been influencing, demanding and forcing the issue to get their way long before "The Decision". In the age before twitter, the internet and the 24hr newscycle this kind of uglinesss was easier to hide but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Brandon]

This is an excellent point. They system needs to be at least modified to highly discourage players from bailing on their franchise and pulling what James and Bosh pulled. Now we here Howard is probably thinking he's going to pull the same crap on Orlando. I'm betting on Stern and the owners crushing this fad now... Somehow.

So you don't want the players to have the same freedom to work where they want, and are wanted, as you presumably would want for yourself. And why is that, because they're rich, and so the same pesky freedoms shouldn't apply to them?

"Their franchise" is an interesting phrase. That implies that the players own the franchise, but I'd say, in most pro sports, especially team sports, the reverse is true. Dwight Howard was drafted by the Magic. If he didn't play well and produce, they'd toss him away like a piece of rubbish. But he cannot make the same choice.

Fans and sports organizations often treat athletes as though they are disposable pieces of meat. IF they produce, they're virtually slaves, who must work under our guidelines and rules and take what we choose to give them. If they don't produce, they're out the door and swiftly forgotten.

[Apollo]

So you don't want the players to have the same freedom to work where they want, and are wanted, as you presumably would want for yourself. And why is that, because they're rich, and so the same pesky freedoms shouldn't apply to them?

They're free to leave the NBA and play elsewhere. You need to look at the NBA as one giant joint venture, because it is. All the NBA players have the choice to go play anywhere outside the NBA. They can play in that Canadian start up league, they can go play in FIBA, they can go work at McDonald's. The freedom is there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_basketball_leagues

Not all of those are running but a bunch are. No one is stopping them from going and playing in one of the smaller leagues for regular people pay. If they're going to play for the 30 partner joint venture known as the NBA then they need to learn to live with the organizational rules. Fortunately for the NBPA, they have a hand in writing them. Most employees elsewhere do not.

"Their franchise" is an interesting phrase. That implies that the players own the franchise, but I'd say, in most pro sports, especially team sports, the reverse is true.

I used "their" like many people around here use "my" and "our" when talking about the Raptors. I don't think anyone in here is paying invoices for MLSE. For that matter I don't think NBA players are paying invoices for MLSE.

Dwight Howard was drafted by the Magic. If he didn't play well and produce, they'd toss him away like a piece of rubbish. But he cannot make the same choice.

You make a good case but again, if he doesn't like the rules on the playground he can go to a different playground. No one is forcing him to work for the NBA.

Fans and sports organizations often treat athletes as though they are disposable pieces of meat. IF they produce, they're virtually slaves, who must work under our guidelines and rules and take what we choose to give them. If they don't produce, they're out the door and swiftly forgotten.

Great generalization there. Furthermore, welcome to life.

[heinz57]

Fans and sports organizations often treat athletes as though they are disposable pieces of meat. IF they produce, they're virtually slaves, who must work under our guidelines and rules and take what we choose to give them. If they don't produce, they're out the door and swiftly forgotten.

that's not being a slave. that's having a job. just like all of our jobs. you play within the rules and regulations of the company or you get fired.

[Apollo]

Except that they get payed millions and live pampered, sheltered lives.

[heinz57]

Except that they get payed millions and live pampered, sheltered lives.

true enough. but jobs are jobs. im pretty sure when we all started our jobs, we had to sign off on codes of conduct, rules and regulations policies, non-disclosure agreements, etc. just because they get paid millions, the definition of a job doesnt change. hell, charlie sheen is proof of that.