Brandon Roy

[SCP0389]

You again mentioned that portland dumped him because he couldnt recreate the Role he used to have with the team but again it was hes injury and not hes ability when playing that reduced hes role with the team. Who said he is the one that needs to get us out of mediocrity why can't he just be an important piece in that ultimate goal. My argument wasn't about weighing the risks between getting a former franchise player vs getting a healthy one it was about taking a risk on philosophies and not relying on what other teams deem as a successful format to win a championship. My point is we can't choose the risk that involves too many unknown variables we have to be proactive and take the risk in which we are in full control of we aint getting a heathly franchise player through free agency so im assuming you meant through the draft. unless we have a crystal ball there aint no way were going to know when or if this team gets another franchise player let alone one who will stay healthy. So its not as simple as you put it. there is no way well know exactly how the addition of roy is going to effect the team maybe thats enough to free up derozan in some situations allowing him to finally break through as our franchise player. plus if hes cheap why not??? I love these discussions.

If Roy is unable to play the role he had been in Portland, then he's simply not good enough to get the Raptors to anywhere but mediocrity. And if he were able to perform anywhere near where he did, then Portland wouldn't want to reduce his role and wouldn't need to reduce his pay. It's as simple as that.

I do notice that you're arguing FOR taking a risk on getting Roy and against taking a risk to get a HEALTHY franchise player. Doesn't make much sense to me. Both are gambles, but the chance of Roy staying healthy enough and playing enough games to make a real impact are far too small. And the effect of getting a real franchise player FINALLY is too much to pass up.

[NoPropsneeded]

SCP0389 is going J.K Rowling all over this thead

[SCP0389]

lol my bad havent talked bball in a while.

[Tim W.]

You again mentioned that portland dumped him because he couldnt recreate the Role he used to have with the team but again it was hes injury and not hes ability when playing that reduced hes role with the team. Who said he is the one that needs to get us out of mediocrity why can't he just be an important piece in that ultimate goal. My argument wasn't about weighing the risks between getting a former franchise player vs getting a healthy one it was about taking a risk on philosophies and not relying on what other teams deem as a successful format to win a championship. My point is we can't choose the risk that involves too many unknown variables we have to be proactive and take the risk in which we are in full control of we aint getting a heathly franchise player through free agency so im assuming you meant through the draft. unless we have a crystal ball there aint no way were going to know when or if this team gets another franchise player let alone one who will stay healthy. So its not as simple as you put it. there is no way well know exactly how the addition of roy is going to effect the team maybe thats enough to free up derozan in some situations allowing him to finally break through as our franchise player. plus if hes cheap why not??? I love these discussions.

So if Roy is basically going to be a role player, then how do you expect the team to contend? However much I like many of the players currently on the team, they simply aren't good enough to lead the team anywhere without a lot of help, and I'm not talking about Tyson Chandler and Brandon Roy. I like DeRozan, but if he had elite talent, I'm pretty sure we would have seen it by now. Davis is a great role player, but I'd be surprised if he sees more than a couple of All-Star games. Bargnani, let's not go there. The only player I have any hope of becoming a 1st or 2nd All-NBA player is Valanciunas, and I'm not ready to start engraving the plaque, yet. If he becomes a borderline All-Star, I'll be happy.

And this "philosophy" isn't something someone cooked up in a backroom by scientists without any practical evidence. And it's not something that "other teams deem successful". This is based on 40+ years of NBA history. Other teams HAVE tried different ways, but it's simply not effective. Go back as far as you like and you can see that the ONLY team that was able to win a Championship without a current or former first team All-NBA player were the 2004 Pistons, and they had Ben Wallace, the 4-time Defensive Players of the Year and 3 time All NBA 2nd team and Chauncey Billups who made the All NBA 2nd team once, as well as 3 other All Stars. And Billups is one of the best clutch players in the history of the game and a probable Hall of Famer. And even that team winning was kind of a fluke.

So being proactive is great, but not if it has no hope of leading you anywhere.

[SCP0389]

So if Roy is basically going to be a role player, then how do you expect the team to contend? However much I like many of the players currently on the team, they simply aren't good enough to lead the team anywhere without a lot of help, and I'm not talking about Tyson Chandler and Brandon Roy. I like DeRozan, but if he had elite talent, I'm pretty sure we would have seen it by now. Davis is a great role player, but I'd be surprised if he sees more than a couple of All-Star games. Bargnani, let's not go there. The only player I have any hope of becoming a 1st or 2nd All-NBA player is Valanciunas, and I'm not ready to start engraving the plaque, yet. If he becomes a borderline All-Star, I'll be happy.

And this "philosophy" isn't something someone cooked up in a backroom by scientists without any practical evidence. And it's not something that "other teams deem successful". This is based on 40+ years of NBA history. Other teams HAVE tried different ways, but it's simply not effective. Go back as far as you like and you can see that the ONLY team that was able to win a Championship without a current or former first team All-NBA player were the 2004 Pistons, and they had Ben Wallace, the 4-time Defensive Players of the Year and 3 time All NBA 2nd team and Chauncey Billups who made the All NBA 2nd team once, as well as 3 other All Stars. And Billups is one of the best clutch players in the history of the game and a probable Hall of Famer. And even that team winning was kind of a fluke.

So being proactive is great, but not if it has no hope of leading you anywhere.

We just arent going to agree are we tim? loll I said you never know Roy could turn out to be he`s old self with a change of scenario and a short season, but we wont find out in till he does play for another team. With the other stuff, Idunno man you can't really expect every player to be a star from the get go, potential or not. Derozan is what? just going into hes third year what have you seen thus far to suggest he wont mold into an elite talent? and in no way can you judge davis yet, he just finished hes first ever NBA campaign. How you can you judge these young men so easily without any real reasoning behind it other then your perception and thats fine, but how can you in the next sentence be optimistic about a player and correct me if i'm wrong, not too many of us have seen a great deal of, other then a few euro league highlights and youtube clips but yet be convinced that he might have what it takes to be an allstar one day hopefully. Obviously team's do deem certain philosophies successful because like you said yourself there is 40 plus years of evidence to support it. I said those philosophies just wont work in Toronto's unique situation and thats totally my opinion so to each his own. you may think having a first team all nba player is one of the few and only ways to win it it all, you have to keep in mind it does not guarantee you squat atleast right away look at Miami currently and the suns a few years back, so if one of our players do manage to get this DISTINCTION are we suddenly contenders??? you say no teams have been successful in the past trying a different approach and I havent been watching basketball that long enough to be able off the top of my head digg that far back, but do we suddenly give up because something has never been done before???? History is meant to be changed. I didn't know Rebuilding involved cleaning house and replacing them with all these young people with potential, why can`t it involve constantly tweaking and evolving while always staying competitive. If you do score a high draft pick one day great, but while you would prefer waiting for Rubber Balls to change this Team I would prefer to go get it or at least fail Trying. P.S. If you think we are going to finish with high odds of winning the lottery this year your going to be sadly disappointed because with or without an addition of a free agent big man this year (which by the looks of it will be the case) Toronto has enough talent to be DEAD SMACK IN THE MIDDLE exactly where you and im sure many other`s hate so much. At the end of the day both of us want the exact same thing and thats a Championship, so whatever path this organization takes I hope the end result is the same.

[mcHAPPY]

Change of Scenario can do magical things.

Not if Roy has no cartilage in his knees and not if he has not accepted he is no longer physically the player he mentally still believes he was.

[Nilanka]

Toronto has enough talent to be DEAD SMACK IN THE MIDDLE exactly where you and im sure many other`s hate so much.

Couldn't disagree more. There's enough talent to be a 22-win team.

The optimism is welcome, but it has to be based on something other than wishful thinking.

[SCP0389]

Apparently everyone has a PHD in orthopedics now lol you say my optimism is based on wishful thinking but you say you disagree based on skepticism. last year was last year. this thread is done so ill stop but if your going to disagree with me please give me a reasoning other then your delusional lol

[Tim W.]

We just arent going to agree are we tim? loll I said you never know Roy could turn out to be he`s old self with a change of scenario and a short season, but we wont find out in till he does play for another team.

Roy's not going through a slump or a funk. His knees are shot. A change of scenery isn't going to regrow cartilage in his knees. And I'm EXTREMELY aware of Roy's problem because, as you may have read me say, I have the same problem. There's NOTHING that can be done. If I move to Calgary, my cartilage isn't going to magically grow back.

With the other stuff, Idunno man you can't really expect every player to be a star from the get go, potential or not. Derozan is what? just going into hes third year what have you seen thus far to suggest he wont mold into an elite talent? and in no way can you judge davis yet, he just finished hes first ever NBA campaign. How you can you judge these young men so easily without any real reasoning behind it other then your perception and thats fine, but how can you in the next sentence be optimistic about a player and correct me if i'm wrong, not too many of us have seen a great deal of, other then a few euro league highlights and youtube clips but yet be convinced that he might have what it takes to be an allstar one day hopefully.

I mostly answered this on the other thread, but with elite players, you can generally see the potential even after one year. I say this after watching 30 years of elite players blossom in the NBA. You can almost always see something there. And I don't see it in either DeRozan or Davis. I think DeRozan has the potential to be an All-Star, and I REALLY like Davis, but neither of them simply display any elite skill that makes me think they can become an elite player. As for Valanciunas, I simply don't know. I haven't watch him play in the NBA, so it's a lot harder to tell. I have watched him play in probably 7 or 8 full games, so I think I've gotten a pretty good feel for him. But he's still so young and raw, it's difficult to gauge. He could become an elite player, but I just don't know. Most likely, I see, as I said, a borderline All-Star, at a similar level to a Joakim Noah

Obviously team's do deem certain philosophies successful because like you said yourself there is 40 plus years of evidence to support it. I said those philosophies just wont work in Toronto's unique situation and thats totally my opinion so to each his own. you may think having a first team all nba player is one of the few and only ways to win it it all, you have to keep in mind it does not guarantee you squat atleast right away look at Miami currently and the suns a few years back, so if one of our players do manage to get this DISTINCTION are we suddenly contenders??? you say no teams have been successful in the past trying a different approach and I havent been watching basketball that long enough to be able off the top of my head digg that far back, but do we suddenly give up because something has never been done before???? History is meant to be changed.

Well, I've been following the NBA VERY closely for 30 years. I've studied players and teams and been fascinated with how to build a Championship team. And I'm not suggesting giving up. I'm suggesting trying to do everything they can to draft an elite player, because, like it or not, it's pretty much a prerequisite to winning a Championship.

There are others, though. Having an elite player is not a guarantee, but it doesn't mean you can win without it. It's like saying that people have lost Wimbledon while using tennis rackets so obviously it's not a guarantee. No, but not using one is probably not the best strategy if you do want to win.

Miami lost last year because they couldn't defend the middle, had poor PG play and not enough of a supporting cast. What they do have is the elite players, and the rest is a lot easier to get. And they're a favourite to win it this season.

Phoenix had the elite player, but were simply not a very good defensive team and they had a big man who wasn't a good defensive player. Trying winning a Championship with a poor defensive big man (Dirk is actually a pretty good team defender). Unless you have a team of elite defenders, it's impossible because that big man's weak defense will always be exploited. It's why I've always been adamant about trading away Bargnani.

I didn't know Rebuilding involved cleaning house and replacing them with all these young people with potential, why can`t it involve constantly tweaking and evolving while always staying competitive. If you do score a high draft pick one day great, but while you would prefer waiting for Rubber Balls to change this Team I would prefer to go get it or at least fail Trying. P.S. If you think we are going to finish with high odds of winning the lottery this year your going to be sadly disappointed because with or without an addition of a free agent big man this year (which by the looks of it will be the case) Toronto has enough talent to be DEAD SMACK IN THE MIDDLE exactly where you and im sure many other`s hate so much. At the end of the day both of us want the exact same thing and thats a Championship, so whatever path this organization takes I hope the end result is the same.

Teams only go as far as their best player can take them. It's why Atlanta's ceiling is the second round. Joe Johnson is a good player, but he's not an elite player. It's why Toronto couldn't get out of the first round with Bosh. You could try the "remain competitive" route, restocking your team with free agents, trades and mid-first round picks, but you are going to remain perennially mediocre if you go that approach. That is unless you're an attractive destination that can attract the best talent. EVERY team needs to rebuild, whether they like it or not. Boston has, even the Lakers have. When Tim Duncan retires, the Spurs will have to as well.

As for how good the Raptors will do this year, I'm pretty confident they are not going to be a middle of the pack team. In order to do that they'd need to win what would amount to 20 more wins (in a full season). There have been very few teams that have made that big improvements, and the majority of them did so because they added an elite player. I have to say I'm shocked at some of the predictions some fans are making, but the same thing happened last year. Some fans were talking about playoffs and how the team might actually be better without Chris Bosh. Then they won 22 games, which was actually 4 fewer than my prediction. Simply put, there is little reason to believe this team will be much better, if at all, than last year.

[ceez]

They're going to play a little defense and the young guys will keep improving? That's gotta be good for at LEAST an extra 2 wins right?!

[Tim W.]

They're going to play a little defense and the young guys will keep improving? That's gotta be good for at LEAST an extra 2 wins right?!

But they're a young team with a new coach and barely any training camp. It's going to take them a while to adjust. Plus, it's possible Reggie Evans won't be back, and Barbosa most likely will be traded. Those are two veterans who do help win some games. Add the fact that Calderon's minutes will probably decrease in order to give Bayless more playing time. However much flack Calderon got by some fans, he's consistently been one of the only Raptors to have a positive effect on the court. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Raptors actually win fewer games.

[mcHAPPY]

But they're a young team with a new coach and barely any training camp. It's going to take them a while to adjust. Plus, it's possible Reggie Evans won't be back, and Barbosa most likely will be traded. Those are two veterans who do help win some games. Add the fact that Calderon's minutes will probably decrease in order to give Bayless more playing time. However much flack Calderon got by some fans, he's consistently been one of the only Raptors to have a positive effect on the court. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Raptors actually win fewer games.

What is the basis for stating Barbosa will most likely be traded or is it just opinion?

BC said last year he was his favourite player and, outside of NBA journalists/rumour-spreaders, I've never heard a mention of him being traded.

[planetmars]

The league doesn't work in a vacuum either. The Raptors may improve slightly with better defense, etc.. however other teams in the league will improve as well. I can see the Raptors fighting for worst spot with Charlotte, Cleveland and Detroit - with Sacramento and Washington on the outskirts.

[Nilanka]

Apparently everyone has a PHD in orthopedics now lol you say my optimism is based on wishful thinking but you say you disagree based on skepticism. last year was last year. this thread is done so ill stop but if your going to disagree with me please give me a reasoning other then your delusional lol

It's not delusion. It's called common sense. If we essentially have the same roster as last year, why would you expect magnificent improvement this year? It makes no sense.

[Bendit]

What is the basis for stating Barbosa will most likely be traded or is it just opinion?

BC said last year he was his favourite player and, outside of NBA journalists/rumour-spreaders, I've never heard a mention of him being traded.

Expiring contract at deadline is probably the reason.