Chisholm: What to do about the C position? Forget Tyson Chandler (212)

[planetmars]

You very well may be right - and probably are.

But a GM might say, "He needs a change of scenery." or, "He will work better with our coach." or, "We just traded for Dwight Howard and now we have Messina as an assistant so lets see what happens with Bargnani here in LakerLand."

Colangelo has always shown the ability to get rid of a contract and if what I proposed failed, the Raptors are looking at one of the worst teams in the league anyways.

To me it is a low risk, high reward proposition (high reward if it succeeds and high reward if it failed - unless Chandler got injured).

Okay fine.. I do believe in stupid GM's.. it's what makes the NBA go round. I'm sure Bryan will have less options available to him, and we may end up getting back a worse contract then Bargnani's. But...

There is just one thing that irks me about this plan.. if it doesn't work (and I really don't think it will) then we could end up moving down the draft ladder, and could miss out on a top end player like Davis, Sullinger, Drummond or Barnes. We have a chance to get someone that good - I really don't want to miss it.

And I don't think Detroit will give up their first rounder (unprotected) for Ed Davis. The only way Detroit gives up their pick is if you take Villanueva or Gordon with it (assuming they amnesty Hamilton), and the last thing we need is another PF or another SG, neither of which play a lick of defense.

[Tim W.]

T.O sports fans have advacted tanking plenty of times over the last 20 years.. raps, leafs, jays to a certain degree.. its this fan mentality that creates an atmosphere were losing is acceptable & inevitable.. too pessamistic for my liking... the whole idea is to play to your potential..give all every night & to believe u can win..if all the young guys we have already mail it in night after night because were expected to loose, what good does that do for there development.. same goes for GM,s, coach's.. everyone has to try to be better & get better..
one thing the raps have always been known for was having great young talent.. daman, VC,Tmac, camby, bosh, to name a few.. our prob. revolves around keeping the guys we have... why u may ask.... because we NEVER win...were always talking tanking... the endless rebuild... i for 1 am tired of that.. we need to create a winning attitude..all the top teams have it...since when have any of them advocated tanking??? NEVER

while i some what agree to triano working with what he had... he never exactly bread confidence..& his defensive scheme was trash.. u play guys staight up till u need help... not constantly try to stear peeps into help defence... its way too predictable..

ive said my piece

u have the right to your opinion as do I

Maybe we disagree on what "tanking" is. To me, tanking is intentionally losing. As far as I recall, the Raptors have NEVER done that. What they've done is just not win, which is completely different. In fact, Raptor history is rife with examples of grabbing over priced and/or over-the-hill veterans in order to try and squeeze out as many wins as possible. Kevin Willis, Charles Oakley, Antonio Davis, Hakeem Olajuwon, Mugsy Bogues, Dell Curry, Mark Jackson, Rod Strickland, Jalen Rose, Donyell Marshall, Anthony Parker, Nesterovic, Jermaine O'Neal, Shawn Marion and Hedo Turkoglu. I think one of the major problems with this franchise is that too many in charge care more about not losing that actually winning.

And unlike other sports, in the NBA a single player can make a big impact on a team, so trying to draft high actually makes a lot of sense.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I've said this before, and its been said in this thread, Chandler seems to have a tendency to play to the level of his team. He would be a great asset to a veteran/experienced team that is competitive.

I have little faith that his play on this team would end up being what fans expect from him.

I dont believe so. He played pretty well when he was with the bulls, they made it to the playoffs a couple of times with curry (3 years), Gordon (rookie), Deng (rookie), hinrich (1 yr), nocioni (rookie) duhon (rookie), and the same when he was traded to NO, paul, west, butler were within 3 years of their NBA careers.

If he did well with Dallas last year, i think he'll do well with the Raps too, since some of the Mavs players have similar skillsets as some Raptors players. Both have a pass first PG, a slashing SG and a perimeter bigman.

[Hugmenot]

I'm not so sure about that. You pair Bargnani up with a defensive center with a defensive coach and he still doesn't get it.. potential is dead at that point.

Bargnani is and will remain a scorer and a good outside shooter even if he does not make any progress as a defender and rebounder.

I suspect he will always have some trade value because there is almost always a team in contention which thinks it needs just that kind of piece to put them over the top as the trade deadline approaches. It's unlikely the Raptors would maximize his trade value at that point but they would likely get something of value in return.

From my perspective, I have no problem pairing whatsoever pairing Bargnani with a defensive big man this year rather than wait for one year and see how he pairs up with an early work in progress like JV. If the experiment fails with an finsihed product like Chandler, you know Bargnani is the main issue; if the experiment fails next year with JV, you will have to determine how much of it was due to JV's inexperience (best case) or talent level (worst case). As much as Ed Davis looks like he will be a force on the defensive end, in my opinion he showed many more encourgaing signs he will be good than he actually was good. Nothing special with that; there is always an adjustment to make when you move to a much higher level of competition and he did miss training camp.

In my opinion, answerinbg questions early provides more opportunities to make the correct personel decisions and to create contingency plans with less variance. Again, just in my opinion, I think the Raptors are better off long-term creatng a sustainable winning environment than gambling they are just one franchise player to be a contender in a few short years.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Maybe we disagree on what "tanking" is. To me, tanking is intentionally losing. As far as I recall, the Raptors have NEVER done that. What they've done is just not win, which is completely different. In fact, Raptor history is rife with examples of grabbing over priced and/or over-the-hill veterans in order to try and squeeze out as many wins as possible. Kevin Willis, Charles Oakley, Antonio Davis, Hakeem Olajuwon, Mugsy Bogues, Dell Curry, Mark Jackson, Rod Strickland, Jalen Rose, Donyell Marshall, Anthony Parker, Nesterovic, Jermaine O'Neal, Shawn Marion and Hedo Turkoglu. I think one of the major problems with this franchise is that too many in charge care more about not losing that actually winning.

And unlike other sports, in the NBA a single player can make a big impact on a team, so trying to draft high actually makes a lot of sense.

But if youre not putting yourself in a position to win by not improving your team when you have the resources to do so, wouldnt that be defined as "tanking" as well?

Coz if you put out pretty much the same team last year and you well know that the team didnt perform well, then historically speaking, shouldnt you be expecting the same results, which is "not winning"?

[Soft Euro]

Sure, I am pessimist about predicting stradom on teenagers who have yet to play one game against NBA type competition.

However, never I had said something like "we need to tank to give us a chance at drafting a franchise player because it is the only way we'll ever get out of this mediocrity", about the only consistent team message I read from you from the past 18 months.

You're a one-trick pony.

Why the need to play it on the person; stop doing that. I like the atmosphere on this forum, please stop spoiling it.

[Tim W.]

But if youre not putting yourself in a position to win by not improving your team when you have the resources to do so, wouldnt that be defined as "tanking" as well?

Coz if you put out pretty much the same team last year and you well know that the team didnt perform well, then historically speaking, shouldnt you be expecting the same results, which is "not winning"?

My point is that the Raptors have never tried tanking in the past, which is what DoNDaDDa was suggesting. What you want to characterize my, and others, plan is more semantics. If you want to call it tanking, fine. I don't have a problem with that.

[planetmars]

Bargnani is and will remain a scorer and a good outside shooter even if he does not make any progress as a defender and rebounder.

I suspect he will always have some trade value because there is almost always a team in contention which thinks it needs just that kind of piece to put them over the top as the trade deadline approaches. It's unlikely the Raptors would maximize his trade value at that point but they would likely get something of value in return.

From my perspective, I have no problem pairing whatsoever pairing Bargnani with a defensive big man this year rather than wait for one year and see how he pairs up with an early work in progress like JV. If the experiment fails with an finsihed product like Chandler, you know Bargnani is the main issue; if the experiment fails next year with JV, you will have to determine how much of it was due to JV's inexperience (best case) or talent level (worst case). As much as Ed Davis looks like he will be a force on the defensive end, in my opinion he showed many more encourgaing signs he will be good than he actually was good. Nothing special with that; there is always an adjustment to make when you move to a much higher level of competition and he did miss training camp.

In my opinion, answerinbg questions early provides more opportunities to make the correct personel decisions and to create contingency plans with less variance. Again, just in my opinion, I think the Raptors are better off long-term creatng a sustainable winning environment than gambling they are just one franchise player to be a contender in a few short years.

I actually don't want Bargnani to be given a chance to have a season with JV personally.. it's not that I'm a 'hater'.. it's just that I think he's had his time to prove himself and hasn't lived up to expectations - time to move on.

As for the second bolded item.. we see things differently. I believe the Raptors had already tried to create a sustainable winning environment with Bosh and failed miserably. You need a top talented piece to work with to be successful in the NBA (Dallas with Dirk, Boston with Garnett and Pierce, LA with Kobe, San Antonio with Duncan, etc). We don't have that player.. and a top-end player will not come to a rebuilding team as a FA. How do you lure one in if you are not NY or LA? Unfortunately with the NBA the only way to build a contending team is through the draft.

[mcHAPPY]

Why the need to play it on the person; stop doing that. I like the atmosphere on this forum, please stop spoiling it.

+1

Personal comments lead to poor discussion very quickly.

[DoNDaDDa]

My point is that the Raptors have never tried tanking in the past, which is what DoNDaDDa was suggesting. What you want to characterize my, and others, plan is more semantics. If you want to call it tanking, fine. I don't have a problem with that.

they tanked last season... BC even said he had numerous offers to improve the team now... but he did minor tinkering & kept the status quo... knowing full well the team sucked & wed get a high pick... i call that tanking... everyone was calling for it... he followed through on it.. i wont even go any futher back then that but it has happened b4 aswell

[Bendit]

But if youre not putting yourself in a position to win by not improving your team when you have the resources to do so, wouldnt that be defined as "tanking" as well?

Coz if you put out pretty much the same team last year and you well know that the team didnt perform well, then historically speaking, shouldnt you be expecting the same results, which is "not winning"?

A team may have the resources but that does not mean spending it on overpriced older and even good players for what tends to be short term gain (as has often been the case in Raps history).

I think the advocates (incl myself) here for not doing much via f/a acquisition this year are merely using the alternative strategy of waiting for what is one of the deepest drafts in years to get who might be a franchise cornerstone.

I dont view this tanking....but positioning the franchise for long term and hopefully sustainable progress towards being a perennial playoff team. I cant see where alternative 1 is a particularly wise choice given the circumstances of the Raptors.

Patience shouldn't be viewed as tanking.

[mcHAPPY]

Eddie Johnson top free agent C's

10. Aaron Gray, New Orleans

Space eater who actually has some limited offensive ability. He only rebounds in his space, but you put him on a team that has great passers and he could average 10 points a game.

9. Joel Przybilla, Charlotte

Przybilla has a big body and an edge to him that would be huge come playoff time. He couldn’t score if you lowered the rim and gave him a ladder, but he’s an excellent defender and seems to be a great teammate.

8. Kurt Thomas, Chicago

A true professional that offers a team whatever it needs. Thomas might be the best in the NBA at setting screens and he’s solid enough from 15 feet on in to knock down the shot. I might be a little biased in saying this because he is one of my favorite players ever, but any team that signs him will immediately upgrade their locker room, which is huge over the course of the season.

7. Spencer Hawes, Philadelphia

I like him and for some reason I believe he will become a double-double player in Philadelphia or somewhere else. Defense is nothing to brag about, but at 7-foot-1 he has potential. He needs to continue to bulk up and work on his back-to-the-basket game.

6. Greg Oden, Portland

If this player finally gets healthy, what a force he could be.

Oden is the poster boy for why kids should not attempt to play 82-plus games before their body is fully developed. He looked the part physically, but it has become obvious he was not strong enough to handle the weight and body he was carrying. If healthy, he would become the best defender in the NBA hands down at the center position. Someone will take the chance to find out.

5. Samuel Dalembert, Sacramento

Dalembert is extremely close to being a double–double guy for his career at 8.1 ppg and 8.2 rpg. I hope he views that as a disappointment because he has the ability to do it every night. What I am most shocked by is his blocking average: 1.9 bpg. His arms are so long he can tie his shoes standing up and that’s all he can give a team in terms of defense? He should be the best defensive center in the NBA with his skills. If he leaves Sacramento, he no doubt should pick a team that will enhance his abilities and not fatten his pockets.



4. DeAndre Jordan, LA Clippers

Message to the Clippers: Pay him. He is 23 years old and I assume the reason you drafted a kid was to allow him to grow. I truly believe he and Blake Griffin will form a tremendous duo for years to come. Once he learns how to shoot free throws, his game will blossom. It’s amazing how that deficiency can slow down a player’s confidence and growth (ask Karl Malone). Jordan has every potential skill a big man would need and it’s going to get better each season.

3. Nenê, Denver

A lot of people have Nenê rated as the top free agent available. Although I like his tenacity and size, I am not sure that we haven’t seen the best he has to offer. This will be his 10th year and his career scoring average is 12.3 ppg and 7 rpg. If I were Nenê, I would not be looking for a team that will count on him to carry them. He could be an All-Star on a team that is on the cusp of a championship.

2. Tyson Chandler, Dallas

It is amazing the transformation he has made… Or was it the exact scenario I was explaining above in regards to Nenê? The best place for him is Dallas and I can’t imagine they would let him escape. He has evolved into a tremendous defender, rebounder and leader. Without him, the Mavericks lose the Finals.

1. Marc Gasol, Memphis

Gasol is the prototype center and at age 26 he will get nothing but better every year. I really love his demeanor and enthusiasm to play the game of basketball. If he was selfish, he would be a 20-10 easily. He gives it up because he has one the best scoring forwards in the game next to him in Zach Randolph. He is good at everything and if Memphis allows him to escape, they will be a 35-40 win team again. Gasol is the best free agent available at any position because he will add wins immediately.



Read more: http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/joh...#ixzz1fJebeXaA

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[Bendit]

they tanked last season... BC even said he had numerous offers to improve the team now... but he did minor tinkering & kept the status quo... knowing full well the team sucked & wed get a high pick... i call that tanking... everyone was calling for it... he followed through on it.. i wont even go any futher back then that but it has happened b4 aswell

I am afraid you forget that BC tried to get Chandler and Diaw. How could that be viewed as tanking. We might well have been in the playoffs and have lost Chandler to free agency this year and missed drafting JV. After the Bobcats trade fu BC decided to lay low and change tack...not pursue windmills which was the right thing to do.

[Nilanka]

..if all the young guys we have already mail it in night after night because were expected to loose, what good does that do for there development..

Just to clarify, tanking does not involve asking your players to "mail it in". Instead, the tanking strategy avoids signing non-impact players, but the players on the court are still expected to compete with full effort. It's much better to be a 22-win team with youth, and cap space, than a 42-win team with vets and expensive, long-term contracts. With the latter, your hands are tied from improving the team.

Tanking involves playing the kids heavy minutes. Give the bulk of the minutes to Davis, Amir, Alabi, DeRozan, Bayless, J.Johnson, and see how well they perform without worrying about whether you win the game. Treat this season as a 5 month practice session to fully evaluate what we have.

What differentiates great players from superstars is that superstars hate losing even more than they like winning. During a painful season, if for example, DeRozan utterly hates losing, and does everything in his power to earn wins, then he's the type of player I want on this team. In a tanking season, young players are given the forum to develop, and if they sulk and whine, and don't provide effort, then they're not worth holding onto. A player's attitude is just as important (if not, more important) than their physical attributes (see Bargnani).

[NoPropsneeded]

Matt nice post. My top 3 centers for the raptors to sign are:

1.Aaron Gray
2.Joel Przybilla
3.Kurt Thomas