Chisholm: What to do about the C position? Forget Tyson Chandler (212)

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Ed Davis had a good rookie year but the reality is he averaged 7/7 on a sh!t team. Down the stretch he averaged 10/8. He is going to be a good player but I do not think All-Star.

The whole topic of discussion has been how deep the 2012 draft is. If adding Chandler is only going to add 10 wins (82 game season talk) then the Raptors are still picking 7-10 range. Then the Detroit/Charlotte/Cleveland pick is sure to be lottery as well... to be honest I am honest on the Philly trade because I think they could make the playoffs again. Having 2 lottery picks in a stacked draft would be a good thing, no?

It's so hard to have this discussion without knowing market value of various players. Without knowing what each of Davis/Amir would return (either alone or as part of a similar package), I'd rather trade Amir than Davis, assuming the Bargnani @ PF experiement is set in stone.

I'm not sure a team would trade an almost certain lottery pick in the upcoming draft for Davis straight-up anyway. Definitely not for Amir. It all depends what it would take to sweeten the pot for either of them.

If I were GM, I'd be looking to trade Amir this offseason/mid-season (for some sort of draft pick), trading Barbosa at the trade deadline (for some sort of draft pick or salary dump) or letting him walk after the season and amnesty-ing Kleiza next offseason, to make the Raps BIG players in next year's draft and free agency.

[Jclaw]

In Marc Stein's and Chad Ford's amnesty discussion for all teams in the league, this was written, uh oh:





Source: Chad Ford, Marc Stein, ESPN.com

If the Raptors can package Ed Davis and a 2013 first round pick to a team for an unprotected 2012 first round pick, sign me up.

Ideas:

ED, 2013 pick to Detroit for Jason Maxiell, 2012 pick unprotected

ED, 2013 pick to Philadelphia for Nocioni, 2012 pick unprotected

ED, 2013 pick to Cleveland for Boobie Gibson, 2012 pick unprotected

ED, 2013 pick to Charlotte for Diaw, 2012 pick unprotected

I don't understand this. Am I being too optimistic with JV? Would anyone not be surprised if the Raps really are pushing hard for one of the top big men and they actually came away with one? I can't see it happening.

[Nilanka]

I don't understand this. Am I being too optimistic with JV? Would anyone not be surprised if the Raps really are pushing hard for one of the top big men and they actually came away with one? I can't see it happening.

I don't understand the logic either. It's like drafting Chris Paul, and then signing Mike Bibby to a 5 year deal. Such a waste of resources acquiring Chandler.

Even more mind boggling is the fact that we're still unsure about Bargnani. He's the whole reason Colangelo is in the market for a centre in the first place.

[Tim W.]

Damn, you beat me to it! I realized that after I posted it! haha


To get back on topic, I agree with Matt's post awhile ago, which supported signing Chandler. I would take it one step further and say that the ideal signing would be for 2 seasons with a team/mutual option for a third.

- not only does it improve the Raps this year (on paper), but it would give the opportunity for a final evaluation of Bargnani @ PF playing aside a legit defensive/rebounding C
- it would also give Valanciunas an ideal mentor for his first and possibly second season in the league
- it would also seem to instantly make Amir trade bait (assuming Bargnani stays for the whole purpose of this experiement and hoping Davis is not the bait), which should net another asset (young player, draft pick or cap space)
- keeping with the youth movement and trying the Chandler/Bargnani with Alabi/Davis as backups experiment, is not likely going to improve the Raps enough in the upcoming shortened season to significantly negatively impact their seemingly favourable 2012 draft standing

Best case:
- Chandler becomes the Raps' defensive anchor, allows Bargnani to blossom as PF, Davis makes great strides in his development from significant minutes as 3rd big, an asset is returned for Amir, Raps still get at least top-7 pick in the 2012 draft, Chandler is traded at trade deadline of his second season for another asset or walks after his second season to free up cap space, Valanciunas comes over for 2013 season and assumes Chandler's position/role on the team and exceeds all expectations while moving into the starting lineup by the second half of the season

Worst case:
- Chandler rests on his laurels and becomes Turkoglu 2.0, Bargnani experiment fails and he shows zero improvement or regresses, Davis gets traded and becomes a two-way star for another team, Amir's body breaks down and becomes overpaid overvalued backup, trade value of Chandler, Bargnani and Amir all nosedive, combination of just enough improvement to miss the playoffs and getting screwed by lottery balls leaves the Raps with 12-15 pick in 2012 draft, Valancuinuas comes over and is expected to become team's savior immediately without a mentor and with an even worse supporting cast

I don't see why Bargnani needs yet another final evaluation, but you already knew that.

And I don't see the upside outweighing the downside. The upside of getting Chandler (winning a few more games and having a mentor for Valanciunas) simply doesn't outweigh the downside of getting screwed out of a potential franchise player and losing even more trade value on Bargnani.

[Tim W.]

Ed Davis had a good rookie year but the reality is he averaged 7/7 on a sh!t team. Down the stretch he averaged 10/8. He is going to be a good player but I do not think All-Star.

The whole topic of discussion has been how deep the 2012 draft is. If adding Chandler is only going to add 10 wins (82 game season talk) then the Raptors are still picking 7-10 range. Then the Detroit/Charlotte/Cleveland pick is sure to be lottery as well... to be honest I am honest on the Philly trade because I think they could make the playoffs again. Having 2 lottery picks in a stacked draft would be a good thing, no?

I've said that I don't expect Davis to be an All-Star, either, but I do expect him to be the type of player I can see winning a Championship one day. If it's a choice between getting an All-Star and Zach Randolph and a non-All-Star and Horace Grant, I take Horace Grant ever time.

And would you rather have Derrick Rose or both Brook Lopez and DJ Augustin? In the NBA it's quality that wins, not quantity. Most of the teams that have won Championships did it with one of the best players in the league leading them. A supporting cast is MUCH easier to get than a franchise player, and this might very well be the best chance the Raptors have at getting a franchise player since 2003. That's not something I want to pass up at the chance of getting a few more wins and a piece you can trade away later.

[Puffer]

Maybe BC is interested in evaluating AB with a good defensive C, as has been suggested, and in the back of his head is the thought that if AB doesn't come through he is gone at the trade deadline for expiring contracts and/or draft pick next year?

Colangelo always seems to have fall back positions. Just speculating.

[mcHAPPY]

I've said that I don't expect Davis to be an All-Star, either, but I do expect him to be the type of player I can see winning a Championship one day. If it's a choice between getting an All-Star and Zach Randolph and a non-All-Star and Horace Grant, I take Horace Grant ever time.

And would you rather have Derrick Rose or both Brook Lopez and DJ Augustin? In the NBA it's quality that wins, not quantity. Most of the teams that have won Championships did it with one of the best players in the league leading them. A supporting cast is MUCH easier to get than a franchise player, and this might very well be the best chance the Raptors have at getting a franchise player since 2003. That's not something I want to pass up at the chance of getting a few more wins and a piece you can trade away later.

What about having your cake and eating it too?

Here is a scenario to add to post 67 :

- sign Tyson Chandler for all the reasons I gave.

- attempt to acquire Boris Diaw and right to swap first round draft pick in 2012 from Charlotte for TPE.


Toronto certainly doesn't tank.
MJ saves $9 million and still has a first round pick.
JV gets his mentor and transition to the NBA.
Toronto still gets an opportunity to get a top draft choice.


My point is Toronto has enough assets and flexibility to do more than throw in the towel on 2011-12.

[Hugmenot]

This. The discussion is mostly about your definition of tanking. Tanking is intentional losing. It's cheating, similar to point-shaving. It's impossible to do without the complicity of your players. There's a covenant among competitive players that they won't easily break: they all want to win, and none of them want to look like they're dogging it on purpose.

If a team loses a ton of games while still playing the best talent they have, and don't make significant trades to get better because those trades would risk long-term success for some sense of short-term "respectability", then that's not tanking.

Were you following the NBA in 1983-84? I was traveling to Philadelphia on business every two, three weeks back then and I distinctly remember many newspaper articles raising accusations of tanking.

You can read http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011...-roger-goodell to get just a glimpse of what was going on at the time.

Teams can lose without the complicity of the players by inserting dumb rotations on the floor, calling low percentage plays, and failing to rest players. Thirty eight year old Elvin Hayes, who was averaging about 10 minutes a game before Houston's tank run, played the full 53 minutes of an overtime game Houston lost by 1. Elvin Hayes was a great player in his days and I absolutely no doubts he tried his all to win the game. The question is, do you think the coach did the same? I wish it was an isolated incident but it was not.

The accusations were serious enough for the NBA to change the lottery draft rules the following year.

[Tim W.]

What about having your cake and eating it too?

Here is a scenario to add to post 67 :

- sign Tyson Chandler for all the reasons I gave.

- attempt to acquire Boris Diaw and right to swap first round draft pick in 2012 from Charlotte for TPE.


Toronto certainly doesn't tank.
MJ saves $9 million and still has a first round pick.
JV gets his mentor and transition to the NBA.
Toronto still gets an opportunity to get a top draft choice.


My point is Toronto has enough assets and flexibility to do more than throw in the towel on 2011-12.

Not bad, but why does Charlotte do it? They can simply amnesty Diaw (since when did amnesty become a verb?) if they really wanted him gone. And that pretty much takes Toronto out of the running for any chance at a free agent or taking on a bigger contract in a trade in 2012. I'm just not sure I understand the ultimate point. Chandler isn't going to make the team competitive, and he's too old to still be worth his contract when the team hopefully will be competitive. With his injury history and the number of years he's played in the league, there's a very good chance that he may start breaking down before his contract finishes, so the Raptors may be stuck with a bad contract for a broken down player. All so the team can go from a "20 win" team to, at best, a "30 win" team and have a mentor for Valanciunas? Am I just not seeing the upside here?

[NoPropsneeded]

ya i think getting chandler or any big name C this off season is a waste of money. Like i have been saying, just sign a cheap veteran C and a backup SF and play out the season.

[mcHAPPY]

Not bad, but why does Charlotte do it? They can simply amnesty Diaw (since when did amnesty become a verb?) if they really wanted him gone. And that pretty much takes Toronto out of the running for any chance at a free agent or taking on a bigger contract in a trade in 2012. I'm just not sure I understand the ultimate point. Chandler isn't going to make the team competitive, and he's too old to still be worth his contract when the team hopefully will be competitive. With his injury history and the number of years he's played in the league, there's a very good chance that he may start breaking down before his contract finishes, so the Raptors may be stuck with a bad contract for a broken down player. All so the team can go from a "20 win" team to, at best, a "30 win" team and have a mentor for Valanciunas? Am I just not seeing the upside here?

Why does Charlotte do it? The franchise is bleeding money and the Raptors save them $9M and they still keep a first round pick in a deep draft. They could use the amnesty on him but they also have a guy named Diop under contract for 2 more years.


The ultimate point:

Toronto fields a competitive team this year while having 2 first round draft picks. If Bargnani has Chandler next to him, I think he shocks the world. They are in a position to draft an elite SF and a PG. Diaw is an expiring contract and would not have any effect on the free agent market next year. I keep having this fantasy of drafting Quincy Miller/Kidd-Gilchrist and Myck Kabongo while signing Nash a free agent next year while somehow Ed Davis turns in to Wilson Chandler.

The skeleton of the 2012-13 roster:

PG: Nssh, Kabongo
SG: DeRozan,
SF: Miller/Kidd-Gilchrist, Kleiza, JJ
PF: Bargnani, Amir
C: Chandler, JV, Alabi

Neither Nash or Chandler will play more than 28mpg in regular season. Once Nash and Chandler go off in to the sunset, Kabongo and JV are there to take their place and the Raps do not miss a beat.

[NoPropsneeded]

Matt i see your starting to like Miller as much as i do.

[mcHAPPY]

Matt i see your starting to like Miller as much as i do.

If Miller's knee is healthy, he is a talent.

[Tim W.]

Why does Charlotte do it? The franchise is bleeding money and the Raptors save them $9M and they still keep a first round pick in a deep draft. They could use the amnesty on him but they also have a guy named Diop under contract for 2 more years.


The ultimate point:

Toronto fields a competitive team this year while having 2 first round draft picks. If Bargnani has Chandler next to him, I think he shocks the world. They are in a position to draft an elite SF and a PG. Diaw is an expiring contract and would not have any effect on the free agent market next year. I keep having this fantasy of drafting Quincy Miller/Kidd-Gilchrist and Myck Kabongo while signing Nash a free agent next year while somehow Ed Davis turns in to Wilson Chandler.

The skeleton of the 2012-13 roster:

PG: Nssh, Kabongo
SG: DeRozan,
SF: Miller/Kidd-Gilchrist, Kleiza, JJ
PF: Bargnani, Amir
C: Chandler, JV, Alabi

Neither Nash or Chandler will play more than 28mpg in regular season. Once Nash and Chandler go off in to the sunset, Kabongo and JV are there to take their place and the Raps do not miss a beat.

Oh, so the Raptors still trade Ed Davis away and keep Bargnani. Then no.

I really don't think even with the moves you mention that Toronto fields a competitive team. I think they field a less bad team. And for that I don't see the point.

Quite frankly, I have absolutely no hope for Bargnani. None. I don't see him playing beside a defensive center doing anything for him. And I don't see a team with him playing heavy minutes being able to do ANYTHING in the playoffs because teams are simply going to exploit him. He's not Dirk, who is Dwight Howard defensively and on the boards compared to Bargnani.

I also don't see the point in Charlotte giving up potentially the best player in the draft instead of simply holding onto Diaw for another 6 months. I'd rather offer to take Diop off their hands in exchange for swapping picks and saving the money on Chandler. The Raptors get a defensive center, don't push themselves out of the running for the top pick, don't spend the money on Chandler and have more cap space next summer. Plus, Diop, while obviously nowhere near Chandler's skill level, has been around long enough to be able to show Valanciunas a thing or two and can start until Valanciunas is ready. And he's not much of a risk because he's only got two years left on his contract.

[NoPropsneeded]

Oh, so the Raptors still trade Ed Davis away and keep Bargnani. Then no.

I really don't think even with the moves you mention that Toronto fields a competitive team. I think they field a less bad team. And for that I don't see the point.

Quite frankly, I have absolutely no hope for Bargnani. None. I don't see him playing beside a defensive center doing anything for him. And I don't see a team with him playing heavy minutes being able to do ANYTHING in the playoffs because teams are simply going to exploit him. He's not Dirk, who is Dwight Howard defensively and on the boards compared to Bargnani.

I also don't see the point in Charlotte giving up potentially the best player in the draft instead of simply holding onto Diaw for another 6 months. I'd rather offer to take Diop off their hands in exchange for swapping picks and saving the money on Chandler. The Raptors get a defensive center, don't push themselves out of the running for the top pick, don't spend the money on Chandler and have more cap space next summer. Plus, Diop, while obviously nowhere near Chandler's skill level, has been around long enough to be able to show Valanciunas a thing or two and can start until Valanciunas is ready. And he's not much of a risk because he's only got two years left on his contract.

i agree on the not trading Ed Davis part. I think the first one to go is Bargnani, Ed davis and Tyson Chandler is a lot better DEFENSIVELY than Bargnani and chandler.