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Why so much love for Butler and Magloire?

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  • #16
    Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Agreed. The love for these guys are aligned with their expectations. Low-minute, defense-first veterans who don't force the issue, know their roles, and provide good leadership to a relatively inexperienced core. They're perfect in that regard. The love isn't a result of their statlines.
    100% agree. They are only meant to help change the culture and instill the hard working, defensive work ethic in the young core players.

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    • #17
      Raptorsss wrote: View Post
      As i said, they are fine as one year veteran rentals, but the fact that they have a significant role with the Raptors shows how weak this team is. Butler is at best a 3rd string small forward (he split-back up duties with the rookie Aminu, behind Ryan Gomes (yikes!) in LAC, and barely saw the floor in chicago and was behind kyle korver on the depth chart, which is the equivalent of playing behind jason kapono.

      Basically, I figured going into the season that the idea was for JJ to play 3/4 of the minutes and Butler to share minutes with Forbes as the back-up 3.

      Also, Magloire shouldn't be playing, really. The centre spot was to be Amir/Gray with Bargs and Davis getting the odd chance to guard opposing 5's. It's great that Casey likes playing his veterans on a young team, but I want to see Forbes and Alabi get minutes, even at the cost of winning games.

      To me Forbes is in an unoffical battle with Weems for the back-up 2 next year and we need to see if Alabi can be our 3rd string centre next year. If Casey doesn't think they can play in the NBA, BC should cut them and find equivalent players who Casey can use, since its important that this team have both a young centre and a 2-3 guard who can be a part of this team next year.

      This year, Casey seems more focused on winning than evaluating the talent. When winning this year is secondary to building a team for next year, where we feel we'll begin to have a competitive team we can build from.


      This is what our team should look like next year.

      1.Calderon,Bayless,Carter (or equivalent veteran)
      2.Derozan, (Weems or Forbes, or someone else), and our new draft pick.
      3. JJ, draft pick, Kleiza (with each getting around 10 minutes per game)
      4. Bargnani, Davis, Amir, Kleiza
      5. Amir, Val, (one of Alabi, Gray, another young centre).

      Magloire as your token Torontonian in a suit.
      I too thought we'd see a bit more of Forbes and Alabi, at the very least to see if they are worth keeping beyond this year (Forbes likely will be because he signed a multi-year deal). I don't necessarily agree with the team you'd like to see next year, because I sincerely hope Bayless will NOT be part of it... but that's for another thread! lol
      Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Jan 4, 2012, 02:11 PM.

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      • #18
        Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
        My thoughts exactly. This is rebuilding and at least they are not taking too much time from the young players. New post please!
        *sigh* the whole point of the thread is that they are taking time from younger players and you don't rebuild with veterans, you bring in veterans to mentor the younger players.

        Look, the Raptors brought in three veterans this year: Carter, Butler and Magloire. Carter who very well might be, certainly offensively, the best of the three doesn't get to play very much since there are two clear cut, younger players who are better than him. What he provides is experience, stability, mentoring for a young Bayless and insurance when one of the other two point-guards go down.

        Due to injuries, Kleiza and Gray respectively, Butler and Magloire are playing 10 minutes a game which is fine, except they are playing an extra 9 and 4 minutes that if earned, should go to JJ (5 additional) and Forbes (4 minutes) and 4 minutes to Alabi. So, if JJ and the others can't earn those extra minutes then this young rebuilding team has some holes that need fixing, Butler and Magloire certainly haven't earned those extra minutes, because they both have been brutal on offense.
        -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
        -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

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        • #19
          It's tough to agree with you Raptorsss. Like we said all last season, there was no accountability, which was leading to a sense of entitlement with our young players. Look. If ED and JJ want more minutes, they have to beat out the competition and earn it. Then they'll have to fight to keep it. I think this is a good thing.
          Welp, that sucked.

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          • #20
            Raptorsss wrote: View Post
            *sigh* the whole point of the thread is that they are taking time from younger players and you don't rebuild with veterans, you bring in veterans to mentor the younger players.

            Look, the Raptors brought in three veterans this year: Carter, Butler and Magloire. Carter who very well might be, certainly offensively, the best of the three doesn't get to play very much since there are two clear cut, younger players who are better than him. What he provides is experience, stability, mentoring for a young Bayless and insurance when one of the other two point-guards go down.

            Due to injuries, Kleiza and Gray respectively, Butler and Magloire are playing 10 minutes a game which is fine, except they are playing an extra 9 and 4 minutes that if earned, should go to JJ (5 additional) and Forbes (4 minutes) and 4 minutes to Alabi. So, if JJ and the others can't earn those extra minutes then this young rebuilding team has some holes that need fixing, Butler and Magloire certainly haven't earned those extra minutes, because they both have been brutal on offense.
            I think they have "earned" those minutes from Casey's perspective, because they are playing the game the way he is demanding it be played. It appears to me that JJ has lost some minutes because he's been benched a few times, after making completely boneheaded plays. I believe this is all part of the learning/mentoring process, whereby the young player get punished if they don't do what Casey wants them to, by watching less skilled, older veterans take their minutes, who are mentoring by example how the game should be played. If JJ (or any other young player you're referring to) where meeting Casey's expectations, I think you'd see them getting their full natural allotment of minutes - and the hope is that by learning from the veterans, they will earn back those minutes they are losing at the moment.

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            • #21
              c_bcm wrote: View Post
              It's tough to agree with you Raptorsss. Like we said all last season, there was no accountability, which was leading to a sense of entitlement with our young players. Look. If ED and JJ want more minutes, they have to beat out the competition and earn it. Then they'll have to fight to keep it. I think this is a good thing.
              Exactly!

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              • #22
                Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
                My thoughts exactly. This is rebuilding and at least they are not taking too much time from the young players. New post please!
                c_bcm wrote: View Post
                It's tough to agree with you Raptorsss. Like we said all last season, there was no accountability, which was leading to a sense of entitlement with our young players. Look. If ED and JJ want more minutes, they have to beat out the competition and earn it. Then they'll have to fight to keep it. I think this is a good thing.
                I don't know where we disagree? I am absolutely 100% in favour of the new culture change, I just want the young players to prove to the coach, that they deserve more playing time.

                I'm worried that Forbes and Alabi are dead weight after these first 5 games.
                -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
                -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

                Comment


                • #23
                  CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                  I think they have "earned" those minutes from Casey's perspective, because they are playing the game the way he is demanding it be played. It appears to me that JJ has lost some minutes because he's been benched a few times, after making completely boneheaded plays. I believe this is all part of the learning/mentoring process, whereby the young player get punished if they don't do what Casey wants them to, by watching less skilled, older veterans take their minutes, who are mentoring by example how the game should be played. If JJ (or any other young player you're referring to) where meeting Casey's expectations, I think you'd see them getting their full natural allotment of minutes - and the hope is that by learning from the veterans, they will earn back those minutes they are losing at the moment.
                  Excellent! Excellent! post you basically wrote, more susinctly the whole idea of my thread. As I said, I believe JJ and Forbes have shown that some, (or all) of their minutes should be given to Butler. The hope is that there is a gradual trend of JJ and maybe Forbes, to earn those 9 extra minutes given too Butler.

                  I see those minutes as an example, of how far away we are from getting where we want to be. Since, Forbes and Alabi haven't earned any minutes are they dead weight?
                  -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
                  -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Raptorsss wrote: View Post
                    Excellent! Excellent! post you basically wrote, more susinctly the whole idea of my thread. As I said, I believe JJ and Forbes have shown that some, (or all) of their minutes should be given to Butler. The hope is that there is a gradual trend of JJ and maybe Forbes, to earn those 9 extra minutes given too Butler.

                    I see those minutes as an example, of how far away we are from getting where we want to be. Since, Forbes and Alabi haven't earned any minutes are they dead weight?
                    I wouldn't say they're dead weight.. but I think they are end of the bench guys. They'll only get minutes in blow outs, or if there are injuries. 5 games in most of our players are healthy. In a shortened season with many back 2 backs, I can see more time for Alabi/Forbes when we need healthy energetic bodies. At this point in the season we still have a chance to compete and make the playoffs. Casey is going to do whatever it takes to win since he's a head coach and wins are vital to help him get another job in the league if he was ever fired by the Raps.

                    However if the Raps start losing a tone of games, and there is no hope in sight for the playoffs.. I can see a lot more minutes for the guys who we need to develop and watch like Alabi, Forbes, Davis and Bayless, and less time for the veterans like Magloire, Carter and Butler.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Raptorsss wrote: View Post
                      As i said, they are fine as one year veteran rentals, but the fact that they have a significant role with the Raptors shows how weak this team is. Butler is at best a 3rd string small forward (he split-back up duties with the rookie Aminu, behind Ryan Gomes (yikes!) in LAC, and barely saw the floor in chicago and was behind kyle korver on the depth chart, which is the equivalent of playing behind jason kapono.

                      Basically, I figured going into the season that the idea was for JJ to play 3/4 of the minutes and Butler to share minutes with Forbes as the back-up 3.

                      Also, Magloire shouldn't be playing, really. The centre spot was to be Amir/Gray with Bargs and Davis getting the odd chance to guard opposing 5's. It's great that Casey likes playing his veterans on a young team, but I want to see Forbes and Alabi get minutes, even at the cost of winning games.

                      To me Forbes is in an unoffical battle with Weems for the back-up 2 next year and we need to see if Alabi can be our 3rd string centre next year. If Casey doesn't think they can play in the NBA, BC should cut them and find equivalent players who Casey can use, since its important that this team have both a young centre and a 2-3 guard who can be a part of this team next year.

                      This year, Casey seems more focused on winning than evaluating the talent. When winning this year is secondary to building a team for next year, where we feel we'll begin to have a competitive team we can build from.


                      This is what our team should look like next year.

                      1.Calderon,Bayless,Carter (or equivalent veteran)
                      2.Derozan, (Weems or Forbes, or someone else), and our new draft pick.
                      3. JJ, draft pick, Kleiza (with each getting around 10 minutes per game)
                      4. Bargnani, Davis, Amir, Kleiza
                      5. Amir, Val, (one of Alabi, Gray, another young centre).

                      Magloire as your token Torontonian in a suit.
                      Dude, what you really seem to be saying is that the way Casey's handling the stated goals doesn't fit what you would do, or what you thought would transpire with this/that player. I can't speak to where you got some of these understandings of what was going to transpire this year with playing time at the 3/4/5 or what will be the battle for backup 2 next year, but so far it seems Casey is doing exactly what he said he would do this year.
                      BTW, small point, but what you feel should be the team next year has 17 (2 over the limit) players on it and it's way too early in this development/evaluation year to assume even half of them will be here next year.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        p00ka wrote: View Post
                        Dude, what you really seem to be saying is that the way Casey's handling the stated goals doesn't fit what you would do, or what you thought would transpire with this/that player. I can't speak to where you got some of these understandings of what was going to transpire this year with playing time at the 3/4/5 or what will be the battle for backup 2 next year, but so far it seems Casey is doing exactly what he said he would do this year.
                        BTW, small point, but what you feel should be the team next year has 17 (2 over the limit) players on it and it's way too early in this development/evaluation year to assume even half of them will be here next year.
                        Actually, I only have 14 players listed (however Forbes is signed next year as well, so him and Weems would make 15) . I slotted the lottery pick in both the two and three Amir 4/5, Kleiza 3/4. I just will be looking at the minutes between the veterans and youngsters, to get an idea of how this team is progressing. I may be reading too much into things, but so be it.
                        -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
                        -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          They are fine because they don't take away touches from DeRozan, AB, Ed Davis and A. Johnson. The both of them are washed up, but they accepted the role of one year rental veterans doing the dirty work.

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                          • #28
                            So why was Davis losing minutes? Magloire out playing him? Sounds more like Magloire 'out efforting' him and Davis was being held accountable for his play.

                            Raptors head coach Dwane Casey didn’t like what he saw out of Ed Davis in recent games against New York and Orlando and let the second-year power forward know about it.
                            ...
                            Casey said Davis was not running hard enough and that’s why he pulled him aside to watch video on Wednesday morning.
                            At the bottom if THIS ARTICLE

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                            • #29
                              SandmanFan wrote: View Post
                              So why was Davis losing minutes? Magloire out playing him? Sounds more like Magloire 'out efforting' him and Davis was being held accountable for his play.

                              At the bottom if THIS ARTICLE
                              Great to see Casey holding Ed accountable. He played better against Cleveland on Wednesday.

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                              • #30
                                SandmanFan wrote: View Post
                                So why was Davis losing minutes? Magloire out playing him? Sounds more like Magloire 'out efforting' him and Davis was being held accountable for his play.



                                At the bottom if THIS ARTICLE
                                I hope all players get this treatment if needed. So far it seems they have set JJ and ED straight. I hope if Amir or Andrea or DD or Barbosa or whoever needs this type of treatment it is given. I use to play for a coach who treated his starters, and especially 'star' players, like absolute sh!t. It was almost so bad guys on the 2nd string didn't want to start because they knew what would happen - lol.

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