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  • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    2/5 of the starting lineup is new and Bargnani missed over half the season due to injury! lol
    The Raptors are 13-21 when Bargnani did play. He's not a difference maker if you think about it like that.

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    • Prime wrote: View Post
      The Raptors are 13-21 when Bargnani did play. He's not a difference maker if you think about it like that.
      One player isn't responsible for wins or losses. You have to look at the entire lineup for comparison purposes, both starting and 2nd units. I think the team will become substantially better through the addition of Gay, Valanciunas, the #10 pick and hopefully the #25 pick in this year's draft (per the 2 deals I suggested making with Memphis & NO). The only players going out are JJ and Davis... I question anybody who argues that the 2012/13 roster wouldn't be any better or more successful than the 2011/12 roster.

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      • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
        I question anybody who argues that the 2012/13 roster wouldn't be any better or more successful than the 2011/12 roster.
        Never said the team wouldn't be better. The question is whether you've built a 35-40 win team or a 45-50 win team that can get better. If you've built the former, then the question, 'what the hell was the point?', comes to mind. I can say with confidence right now that any lineup featuring Bargnani, Calderon and Derozan ain't winning 50 games unless the other two guys are Lebron James and Dwight Howard.

        Again, as I've posted before, I'm not opposed to going for it all right now if you're close enough to make the plan feasible and you are committed to truly going for it by bringing in top of the food chain players like the Celtics and Heat did. If you can't meet those requirements (and I don't think the Raps can) you're better off thinking long term.

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        • Prime wrote: View Post
          The Raptors are 13-21 when Bargnani did play. He's not a difference maker if you think about it like that.
          He does make a difference, he's just not a #1 guy. He's a complementary piece but he's a piece that can work really well when he's used correctly. If he ends up in between a rich man's Robert Horry and a poor man's Dirk Nowitzki then I think they have a strong piece to the puzzle.

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          • slaw wrote: View Post
            Never said the team wouldn't be better. The question is whether you've built a 35-40 win team or a 45-50 win team that can get better. If you've built the former, then the question, 'what the hell was the point?', comes to mind. I can say with confidence right now that any lineup featuring Bargnani, Calderon and Derozan ain't winning 50 games unless the other two guys are Lebron James and Dwight Howard.

            Again, as I've posted before, I'm not opposed to going for it all right now if you're close enough to make the plan feasible and you are committed to truly going for it by bringing in top of the food chain players like the Celtics and Heat did. If you can't meet those requirements (and I don't think the Raps can) you're better off thinking long term.
            But that's just it, I don't think any of the moves being discussed means the Raps are in "going for it all or nothing right now" mode. I don't expect massive win total increases to be made in just one season (hopeful yes, but not expecting). Adding Gay, Valanciunas and even one 1st round pick, would improve this team and would hardly limit the team in any way from continuing to make roster improvements this offseason or beyond. The trade for Gay (and possibly trade with NO for #10 pick) is not the be-all and end-all roster move. The team still has lots of assets and flexibility, especially with all the salary that will come off the books after each of the next 3 seasons.

            I think the team will definitely compete with a strong chance of making the playoffs next year (given the weakness and likely further eakening of the Eastern conference) as a result of those moves. I also think they will remain setup to continue improving next year and beyond, through internal player development, draft picks, cap space for free agency and assets for potential trades.

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            • So Gay has proven to be a difference maker? His time in Memphis doesn't settle that.

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              • Prime wrote: View Post
                The Raptors are 13-21 when Bargnani did play. He's not a difference maker if you think about it like that.
                context is everything... he was playing back from an injury that ultimately ended his season.
                For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                • thead wrote: View Post
                  context is everything... he was playing back from an injury that ultimately ended his season.
                  The differential in wins is almost negligible if you look at the previous season.

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                  • Apollo wrote: View Post
                    I never said they should trade for Iggy. I said Iggy made more sense than Gay in regards to another poster's comments. Of course Gay is better than Iggy. Neither should be pursued and nor would they if Colangelo weren't on a contract year... That's my opinion. There are lots of potentially good prospects at #8 and that cap space could be used on an impact vet.

                    Yeah Gay is only 26. The Raptors probably won't be ready to contend for five years if everything goes well with JV. In five years that 19 or 20 year old that they would take now would be entering a phase that Gay is already in now. Colangelo has a great draft track record. I trust him to make the right pick. I do not trust him to make the right trade with that pick.
                    What prospect at #8 is better than Gay right now and what prospect is guaranteed to ever put up 20 points per game?

                    What free agent is available that is better than Rudy Gay?

                    What free agent is available this year that is a definite to sign with a team that has been one of the jokes of the league the last 4 years?

                    What impact free agent is available that the Raptors would not have to grossly over pay for?

                    By the Raptors 'wasting' 2 assets to get Gay they save 2 other assets in the TPE and MLE. Those two assets could also yield impact veterans - and maybe another lottery pick if rumours are true.


                    I'm talking total crazy here now but here I go:
                    What if Toronto acquired Gay/25. Acquired Ariza and #10. Traded DeMar/25/37/56 to Phoenix for #13. What if Toronto traded Ariza/10/13 to Sacramento for Garcia/5? Probably not possible but just an illustration of the flexibility Toronto still has even if trading for Gay.


                    Acquiring Gay hardly handcuffs the Raptors. If Gay brought the Raptors to the luxury tax, then yes, I would most definitely be questioning the wisdom. But he doesn't. He takes the Raptors to the soft cap leaving them with $12M in room before hitting the luxury tax.

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                    • Apollo wrote: View Post
                      I never said they should trade for Iggy. I said Iggy made more sense than Gay in regards to another poster's comments. Of course Gay is better than Iggy. Neither should be pursued and nor would they if Colangelo weren't on a contract year... That's my opinion. There are lots of potentially good prospects at #8 and that cap space could be used on an impact vet.

                      Yeah Gay is only 26. The Raptors probably won't be ready to contend for five years if everything goes well with JV. In five years that 19 or 20 year old that they would take now would be entering a phase that Gay is already in now. Colangelo has a great draft track record. I trust him to make the right pick. I do not trust him to make the right trade with that pick.
                      Yes, there are a lot of good prospects. But, Gay is a good player.

                      We've gotten nowhere with prospects. So, let's add more. Fuck that!

                      I don't know how many times in the next ten years. We will overpay a guy to a longer term than gay whos not as good.

                      It is nearly season three of five and dwindling as we speak. Weve gotten nowhere at least this shows the raps are making an attempt.

                      Gay isnt the answer. But, he is a step in the right direction. I'd rather they go out and get a younger guy with more potential since that is what they truly need.

                      But, you gotta take what you can get.
                      If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                      Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                      Comment


                      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        What prospect at #8 is better than Gay right now and what prospect is guaranteed to ever put up 20 points per game?

                        What free agent is available that is better than Rudy Gay?

                        What free agent is available this year that is a definite to sign with a team that has been one of the jokes of the league the last 4 years?

                        What impact free agent is available that the Raptors would not have to grossly over pay for?

                        By the Raptors 'wasting' 2 assets to get Gay they save 2 other assets in the TPE and MLE. Those two assets could also yield impact veterans - and maybe another lottery pick if rumours are true.


                        I'm talking total crazy here now but here I go:
                        What if Toronto acquired Gay/25. Acquired Ariza and #10. Traded DeMar/25/37/56 to Phoenix for #13. What if Toronto traded Ariza/10/13 to Sacramento for Garcia/5? Probably not possible but just an illustration of the flexibility Toronto still has even if trading for Gay.


                        Acquiring Gay hardly handcuffs the Raptors. If Gay brought the Raptors to the luxury tax, then yes, I would most definitely be questioning the wisdom. But he doesn't. He takes the Raptors to the soft cap leaving them with $12M in room before hitting the luxury tax.
                        Nicely done sir. +

                        Comment


                        • I'm down for Rudy Gay. It's not like anyone significant will want to sign in Toronto.

                          He's also a borderline all-star, with potential to get better. He's 25, he's long, he's athletic, he's good defensively, he's clutch, he can post, he can shoot, he can create his own shot, he can play inside or out. There's not a lot he can't do.

                          His problem is he's too passive. In my eyes, what separates Carmelo from Rudy Gay is the swagger, where Melo believes I'm the shit and wants to stand out while Rudy Gay seems more content on blending in with the team and disappears for stretches. If he ever adapts that mentality, I see a definite all-star.

                          Maybe Memphis trading him could prove to be the best thing that happened to him, after signing the max contract. If I were him, I'd be pissed knowing that I'm the odd man out from a Western contender (somewhat). That Memphis team is way too balanced and they like to play inside-out, starting from their post -- which is arguably their strength, so I really don't blame them.

                          It then becomes an issue of not enough balance, since Rudy's strength is not in his ability to spot up.

                          Toronto would be an opportunity for him to establish himself as an all-star type player, which his contract warrants. Bargnani has the ability to stretch the floor, allowing Rudy to work in the high post area (his #1 strength)
                          “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

                          -- Charles Barkley

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                          • Apollo wrote: View Post
                            So Gay has proven to be a difference maker? His time in Memphis doesn't settle that.
                            He is the starting sf on a playoff team.

                            We dont even have a starting sf.
                            If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                            Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              What prospect at #8 is better than Gay right now and what prospect is guaranteed to ever put up 20 points per game?
                              This isn't a 100m dash Matt.

                              • Is Gay a proven leader?
                              • How's his team done with and without him in the playoffs?


                              These two are fair questions given the financial commitment.

                              Comment


                              • Apollo wrote: View Post
                                This isn't a 100m dash Matt.

                                • Is Gay a proven leader?
                                • How's his team done with and without him in the playoffs?


                                These two are fair questions given the financial commitment.
                                Fair questions.

                                What rookie is coming in and leading though? I'd rather take the known talent and look for a player leader elsewhere. Luckily the Raps have a great leader on the sidelines already - something the team has not had.... possibly ever.

                                The playoff record is a fair point. It is a team game though. Randolph was far from 100% and Mayo shot 18% fg and 9% 3pt over last 5 games of series.

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