Ray Allen had a couple of injury plagued seasons in Seattle and is now in his 17th year and still playing 34mins a night.
Steve Nash had some 40,50,70 game seasons in Phoenix and Dallas and is now in his 17th year and still playing 32mins a game.
Why can't Calderon have another 5 years?
There are exceptions to every rule but those players are not the norm nor do they play international ball every summer. They are all well-known fitness fanatics - like freaks. They train like few other NBA players have ever done before or do now. I'm not talking skill development either - strength, core, flexibility, cardio - they do the total package.
my point is, if every player is forecasted to "not play efficiently for the next 5 years" because of age and history, every player will already be retired by the age of 25.
This example is obviously exaggerated, but you get the idea. There are far more NBA players whose bodies begin to breakdown on the wrong side of 30, than those that don't.
If you're a gambling man, you might stick with Calderon and hope he stays healthy. If you prefer not to take that risk, you move on with your next PG.
The Spurs run with Duncan because they're championship contenders. The same with the Lakers and Kobe, or Dallas and Dirk/Kidd.
But it makes very little sense for the Raptors to hold onto Calderon today if they can get good pieces in return. This rebuild is far from one or two moves away from completion. The PG spot is a hole that will eventually need to be filled.
If the Lakers were in the lottery the past 3 seasons, I guarantee they'd be looking to move Kobe as they begin the rebuild too.
Anyways, back to the original point. It's entirely possible that Calderon might play at a high level for 5 more years. But how can anyone confidently say it'll happen?
Last edited by Nilanka; Mon Mar 5th, 2012 at 04:06 PM.
But Calderon, compared to the "exceptions to the rule" is not far off. They all go through the same regiment every season, training, conditioning, etc. Calderon has been injured, but it was never career threatening. And he was never rushed back coz they had TJ and Jack backing him up so im guessing, lets say in the 15 games he missed, only 8 or 9 was really because of the injury, and 6 were precautionary. And in FIBA, he averaged what, 20-25 mins a game for 8-10 games? i really dont think thats very much. And like i said, with Navarro and Rubio, he's lucky to even play 15mins from now on.
Why does a rebuilding Raptors team need to hold onto a 30 year old player who isn't considered a superstar?
I can't think of one reason that outweighs the benefits of cap relief/draft picks that we'd gain in a Calderon trade.
Last edited by Nilanka; Mon Mar 5th, 2012 at 04:23 PM.
They are all well-known fitness fanatics - like freaks. They train like few other NBA players have ever done before or do now. I'm not talking skill development either - strength, core, flexibility, cardio - they do the total package.
MF: Can you give us some insight into your training routine, both off-season and during the season?
Kobe: During the season, I focus a lot on weight training, obviously building up my strength level as the season progresses. In the off-season, it's about getting stronger as well, more agile. Also, conditioning plays an important part in that, because you want to make sure you come into the upcoming season in tip-top shape. Then, obviously, you want to get on the basketball floor and work on your skills.
MF: In the off-season, you probably spend many more hours training, is that right?
Kobe: During the season, it's probably about four hours or so a day, with practice and extra work.
MF: So specifically though, in the off-season, what kind of weight lifting are you doing? Is it explosive movements, like plyometrics?
Kobe: Not really, it's all Olympic lifts. I do a lot of track work.
MF: So like snatches, things like that?
Kobe: Yeah, clean-pulls, deadlifts, Romanian deadlifts, back squats, things of that nature.
MF: One of the most impressive aspects of your game is your stamina – your ability to play so many minutes per night at such a high level. If you could pass along some tips on how to get bigger, obviously, but also to stay agile and have extra energy, would you recommend Olympic lifts?
Kobe: That helps tremendously. I think it's a combination of lifting weights and doing a conditioning program. Whatever your program is, the key is to push yourself to a level where you're hurting. You can't gain conditioning without going through it. You're going to have to feel some pain, you're going to have to feel like your lungs are burning, and you know, you want to spit up blood, that sort of thing.
MF: Sure. So what kind of cardio do you have to do – I'm imagining that during the games and practice, you get plenty –
Kobe: No, but I do a lot more. When I get on the basketball floor, it's about fine-tuning my skills, it's not about conditioning. My conditioning comes from just running, whether it's on a track, or on a field, or on the court itself, just doing suicides, or sprints.
MF: So it's just a technique thing, shooting jumpers, things like that?
Kobe: Yeah, it's something I can do over and over, so I'm in great shape.
MF: How many do you shoot in a day?
Kobe: It's between 700 to 1,000 makes a day.
MF: How has your training program changed over the years? You're already becoming a veteran of the league.
Kobe: It's become more efficient. I'm not just doing a whole bunch of things. I think when you first come into the league, you kind of figure out what works best for your body, what wears down your body, what doesn't, recovery, what works best in that area. I've been in the league 10 years, 11 years now so I know exactly what works and what doesn't work for me.
MF: Do you have any training tips, aside from Olympic lifts, that you'd recommend to younger basketball players?
Kobe: The thing that I tell them all the time is consistency. If they watch me train, running on a track, it doesn't look like I'm over-exerting myself. It's a consistency with which you do it, in other words, it's an every-day-thing. You have a program, and a schedule, and you have to abide by that, religiously. You just stick to it, and it's the consistency that pays off.
MF: If you could pinpoint one part of your game – and this would really be nitpicking – what would it be?
Kobe: It depends – I usually make those evaluations at the end of the season, along with Phil (Jackson) and the coaching staff, and break down the season and how I progress, and how I evolve as a player, go into the summer with a plan, exactly what I need to work on.
MF: So that's every summer? You break your game down?
Kobe: Oh yeah. You have to.
The second point which was lost is Nash doesn't play basketball in the off season - let alone international ball! Allen doesn't play international ball. Kobe has played - exception to the rule who is also the youngest of players mentioned.
But if youre trading Calderon because he "might" not perform efficiently for the next couple of years, then IMO, thats wrong. He's started in all 37 games this year at 33mins a night, with a number of back to backs and back to back to backs. Looks like he's just fine.
Calderon's injuries have been nagging and persistent muscle and joint tweaks that are classic overuse injuries. If Calderon doesn't play international ball and does the Steve Nash off season program with the same drive and intensity that Nash does it, then sign me up for 5 more years of Jose. But he is not going to stop playing international ball and because of that he will never do the type of off season training and conditioning that Steve Nash does.
I didn't realize we had a Raptor training/medical staff person posting here. You guess? With what experience and expertise? Lets assume you were correct they were precautionary, that still didn't help explain the numerous other games when he was not 100% and we had to listen to announcers and coaching staff tell us how banged up he is and read about his ongoing struggles. How soon the faithful forget.
Yes, Calderon is only going to play 20-25 minutes in 8-10 games. Never mind all the other practice and sport-specific training that goes in to playing for your national team - plus tune up tournaments and friendly games.
If the Raptors keep Jose and he is injured next year, I have numerous comments in mind I will go back and find. And if I am wrong, then I will certainly eat my share of crow. I do feel more comfortable with the probability heavily weighted to my side though.
I'm not ignoring "injury history", I'm just not putting a premium on it for a guy who, if he stays in Toronto past this current contract, is destined to be making in the $6-7M range and be playing no more than 25 minutes a game by the 2013-14 season. If he misses 10 games next season, that's not really a concern. If he misses more than that, then they better have a good backup -- but that's the case right now, too, isn't it?
It seems to me the worry about the PG position shouldn't be Jose, who is clearly among the top 5-10 game managers in the league, but rather whoever is stepping in for him when he needs a break. Fill THAT spot first, worry about your "future backup" later...
Last edited by jimmie; Mon Mar 5th, 2012 at 04:53 PM.
Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.
Im not sure if i need to apologize, but i figured none of us here is really an expert on the Raptors, or player's conditioning or what not, so everything that gets posted is pretty much an "In my opinion" type thing. I thought it was a given.
Its pretty much the same argument with Bargnani, if he sustains improvement, then we're all happy, if he regresses, trade him. And that always been my contention, you cant predict the future, and there's always a possibility the future is not written by history. Calderon maybe injured next year, he may play another 8 years like Nash.
In my personal opinion, my personal belief, Calderon can still play efficiently with minimal to no games missed within the next 5 years. But i could be wrong. Im no expert! hahaha just kidding matt.
I agree that it can't be guaranteed that Calderon has 5 good years left, but I would strongly argue that he has at least a couple good years left, given his style of play. His game isn't dependent on speed or athleticism as much as some players; he plays with his head and court vision, which deteriorate at a much slower pace.
I also don't see a lot of viable options to replace Calderon with. Some options are very unlikely (I'm looking at you Matt & Nash! lol) while others are not likely to be much of an upgrade in at least the next year or two (ie: Dragic, any PG is this year's draft). Some other names mentioned as potential replacements might be good players, but aren't nearly the facilitator that Calderon is (ie: Jennings).
I am very open to trading him, given his age, salary and alleged trade value, but this young Raptors team won't be nearly as good next season without a legit pass-first floor general running the show. Without a viable replacement, I think a lot of people will realize just how effective Calderon was AFTER he's gone.
Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Mar 5th, 2012 at 05:21 PM.
There is a big difference between an all-star talent entering his prime and an oft-injured, average-to-slightly-above-average NBA PG leaving his prime. Bargnani detractors have always hated his style of game and questioned his heart, hustle, and intensity. I don't question any of that with Calderon - I question his body in light of his desire to put his own interests (representing his country) versus my interests as a fan (the Toronto Raptors). Until 1 month ago, Calderon had no trade value whatsoever. Suggesting a trade to any American reporter/analyst with Calderon going out was subject to great ridicule. Now, not so much. Bargnani will always have trade value because he is a 7-footer who can score in a variety of ways. Calderon has shown he is one tweaked hamstring/groin/hip away from having no value to the Raptors - so trade him now.
The difference between the crystal ball argument of 'he may get injured' vs. 'he may not get injured' is Calderon has not shown he is able to play international competition in the summer and return to an NBA season remaining free of overuse and fatigue injuries - until this season when he had 4 months of rest, of course. Lets see how he holds up after just 5-6 weeks off before the start of training camp and 3 NBA games a week. There is a possibility that will never happen again but the odds do not support it based on history, in my opinion.
I do appreciate your opinion. By no means do I think your opinion is invalid or unworthy of consideration. What I would appreciate though is one piece of evidence to support the opinion. Obviously you can't do that because you've made it clear it is only your personal belief. My argument is only my belief as well and, despite the evidence to support it, it remains only a belief - so there you go.
We'll have to agree to disagree but, just like the international competition argument was never addressed, Nilanka had a very good point that has not been addressed either:
Forgetting contract, forgetting injury history, this alone is merit to move on, in my opinion, if a trade of value is out there to be had. Based on the value Raptors fans have on Jose, there must be a great deal out there - I hope it is made.
Don't forget my argument of obtaining Nash stems from losing Jose's contract and trading Calderon always returns a pick to draft a PG (preferably Kabongo) to back up Nash for 2-3 seasons.
The idea isn't as far-fetched as some think it is.
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